American Engineering & Development Corp.; 10-0359 08/27/12

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The "window" between each of the spring pockets is actually what hits the alloy post or stop. The rivets are holding the 3 piece assembly together. Not yet certain is springs are too weak, if they were shimming them would have little effect. Sharealike says there is substantial wear in the assembly causing a loss of available travel. That may be right but I would be surprised if a low mileage basket that is chuddering would show that much wear in just a few thousand miles.

I suspect the leading cause of chudder is the fact that the springs are loose and by the time the slack is taken up to start compressing them it is too late to stop the acceleration of the assembly and it goes till it hits the stops. Rivets don't like to be messed with once set. I don't think it would help the wear issue. That is in another "plane" or direction. This time I did what John suggested cleaning with alcohol and that seems to do the trick. Take a test ride motor was smooth all the way throught the RPM. And NO clutch chudder. IowaV Response to your questions.

Yes that is spot on. Stripped two down and that's exactly the problem in both of them. It's also what guys post pictures of on other forums. The springs are not too weak from new and in my experience are in perfect condition after 15, miles of hard use - I measured and inspected them all. The problem is the outer plate works loose on the rivetts - see the polished plate and the top of the alloy post round the rivett hole in my pictures. And secondly the inner plate has no rivetts and so it floats about in the alloy slots - even on a brand new basket you will see that plate moves just a little.

It's visible between the gear and alloy without stripping and is also the same plate you see round the springs with the windows in it. Once the newness has worn off the hard steel plate starts to vibtate and cuts into the windows in the alloy. The effect is that it elongates makes longer the spring slots. On the worst case I have seen this inner plate was also hitting the stops besides the gear. There were two sets of bruise marks on the alloy posts. The owner of this bike did admit to wheelies and dragstarts SV. Not my cup of tea riding style. So far my fixes have worked and you do this by taking the damper to bits and working out the best way to fix it's own particular wear pattern with drilling and machining.

You really do need to know what you are doing by understanding how it works and then fitting items inside so that you tailor a bespoke repair for each basket. I also add a little extra clearance than when new. THink of it like this - The damper is the same parts as a Busa four cylinder. That was designed to damp the kick from a 16 bore shot gun. Now we are trying to damp an 8 bore with the same bit of stuff and slightly stronger springs.

I can make them strong enough to do this even after they have started to fail. Sort of half right. Unfortunately this might do something for the outer plate but not the inner. And the rest of what I found - The rivets are fairly soft steel and drill out with a normal pedestal drill using high speed steel bits. The other steel components inside are hardened steel and require more than your normal tool steels to have any effect when re-working them.

The rivets are special in a few ways. Firstly they are a precise ground diameter so that they are an interference fit in the outer plates holes and a tight fit in the alloy. The end in the alloy that would normally be hammered over becomes tapered. The only cure here is to drill out and use an oversize fastener.

None of the overloading and striking begins to start again if you get everything correctly fastened up and carrying its equal and correct share of the engines load from the start. And we would probably not be facing any of this if Suzuki had taken a little more care in design and manufacture themselves. A basket should be lasting the life of the bike without abuse.

I now have a stream of takers for free trial repairs posting their baskets off to me. Only four arrived to date for those guys who read here - Mostly engineers and enthusiast mechanics arranged through meet ups with like minded guys. Shared much of what could be done and kept in touch. We have exchanged details via PM or e-mail, then answered any concerns and worked out how to cover the postage costs.

I hope there will be many repaired baskets back in bikes ready for the spring in the northern hemisphere with what I hope will be some long term reports from real life users. A proper test if ever there was one. My only issue will be meeting demand once I start the new job. I have a couple of guys could do the work once they have seen me do half a dozen with the various permutations of faults to repair. It is good to have all of the input from other riders, even the devils advocates make us think of more possibilities.

When I first visited this site the fix seemed to be replacing the clutch and some had done it five times. I think we are onto the fix, I have a miles on my three washer fix and so far so good. I had planned to ride it a week while waiting on a new gasket, but my confidence grew with each mile and test. I tried hard acceleration and low RPM lugging up hills with a passenger and all is well. I have considered adding washers to the other three springs, but not sure it will be necessary since they almost touch anyway and it may be a good idea to have secondary springs to pick up the load only under heavy torque?

My clutch chudder was bad when idling along on flat ground and turned into hammering when accelerating or going up a steep hill. I think it was hitting the stops only under heavy torque. Shimming the springs has fixed both problems. When the oil is hot I can still hear a difference when the clutch is engaged sitting in neutral , but I think it is gear lash. I plan to pull the clutch soon and will let everyone know what I find.

You fellers keep up the good work and keep us informed. Harder to get them into the secodary as these springs are stiffer. You can see this because they are a coarser helix with slightly less coils and made from heavier gague wire. Forgive me if it's mentioned in earlier posts. A bit more food for thought which will help us understand what we are doing here. I completely agree that a heavier flywheel on the crank might smooth the torque pulses to lessen the damper travel and so the hitting damage. Earlier owners and potential new owners had been cautious of the knock from the main bearings at idle.

That noise was also related to clutch damper condition, lever in or out and engine temperature. We need to remember the clutch is directly geared to the crank so that makes the mass of the large driven gear on the clutch, the damper springs, the alloy clutch basket and all the steel clutch plates part of the engines flywheel -some weight then.

The alloy clutch plates and clutch centre hub also become an additional part of the engine flywheel in neutral with the lever out. Once you take off under power the complete clutch acts as though it is part of the engines flywheel. This weighs as much as the engine flywheel and looks a larger diameter. We know it rotates slower but it still adds up to being a major contribution to the damping of the engines torque pulses.

Now to the point - these dampers are loose from new - everyone who bought one confirms this I had them in bits and know it's because the inner spring plate is not tight when they are delivered. The plate is loose and floats about hitting the alloy from new and all but one spring is a loose fit when new.

The springs are intended to be like this, no way is the plate as its the equivalent of never putting the rubber in the end of your rear damper. The loose plate loosens significantly over the early miles and it's here that we start to get the equivalent of a loose flywheel and reduced flywheel inertia. The "clutch flywheels" inertia characteristic is never what Suzuki intended and is no longer working in harmony with the one on the end of the crankshaft. You have some initial vibration from new. Once this has continued for a while the damage to the inner springs keeper plate and alloy basket slots it pushes on the ones most people have never seen is significant.

This situation, coupled with the fact that the wear soon becomes enough to let the gear start hitting the stops is causing the secondary and more severe vibration - chudder. I say get the plate fixed in good and tight so the main vibration never starts. When the new K5 SV's were launched went to black frames - Stroms the same I think a Suzuki press pack went to the magazines. This did'nt refer to past problems but made much publicity of a "lighter crankshaft and flywheel assembly to smooth out the engines roughness".

If you look at the parts the only change here was the new flywheel - supposed to be lighter but the cranks remained the same across the range. What were they up to?

Technical Area => Clutch => Topic started by: realshelby on 12/04/09 1419 Hours

I have a movie of this inner plate rattling. Will send to anyone who provides an e-mail address via PM. Only way I have to record sound and motion. Maybe youtube might be a solution. Thanx for sharing the information 2 all of us: I appreciate your report and hope you will keep us informed of any changes and mileage as you can. I agree with your description of the problem overall. I hope as this progresses we can fine tune the process. I have a couple ideas I want to try and need a junk basket to tear apart for reasons not yet brought up.

My goal in this is to find a fix for the chudder that we can prove works at least for a LOT of miles, more than the average rider would do in a few years if not permanently. Next is to make the mod simple enough that a lot of owners can do this themselves. That will never be the case if the basket has to come apart! If I come up with changes I'll post pics and descriptions. The main gear is out of sight but is fastened solid to board below. The two springs fitted are the one primary spring designed to work at idle and just one of the three main load springs.

Only the primary spring is in use here - taking load from the gear to the plate and then to the basket. The main gear starts to hit the alloy stop posts once the inner keepr plate has worn to this level. That keeper plate is loose from new but doesn't wear any more once the gear hits the stops as it's just found a comfortable position. You can see it's the movement of the springs seats in the plate that lets the gear move too far. Washers or stronger springs just makes this plate more determined to elongate that slot so the gear will hit the stops after a while.

I think what we really need is a reusable gasket!! I get tired of scraping all that junk off of there. Ok who's up to milling a o-ring groove in the clutch cover! I think it started with using rocks as hammers!. We could do with better drain for the water pump. No matter how good I got at it I always got some coolant run down the case and into the sump. Just a chore cleaning it out before putting all back together. I swear my engine is narrower than standard - the number of times the case and cover have been scraped clean between prototypes.

Just a moulded re-useable gasket would have been a great help. It's all over for me now that I have the "engineered in fix". Will be happy with smooth riding for a long time when the weather picks up and will be making modifications for those on the list in the mean time. Another guys spring pocket wear pictures here for you to see.

The plate in this one moved so much 3mm that it also hits the alloy posts just below the main gear hitting marks. None of the wear here can be seen, understood or measured without stripping the basket down. The four other pictures are from an independent engineers report. The rest is still subjudicy so not wise to show. Note the three thin alloy spokes where they join the inner ring and bearing an earlier prototype shown as that brass bearing insert is not standard. If you get so much movement in the spring pocket plate, the thin ends of the spokes can show small cracks on the inside.

The alloy basket is scrap if this happens as no way would you want to be on the bike if the hub broke out. You only see this and other failing parts with a good internal inspection - done before starting the repair work. The modification takes the load away from this area and straight to the outer fingers of the basket and onto the clutch plates. A much shorter route for the load. I would like to extend a big thank you to the many, many people that have taken the information from me at face value, understand what is wrong, and have sent me their vibrating baskets for modification. Rick will ship it to you cost free in the US John I would be interested in the clutch housing.

I have a K6 I thought I had cure the shudder but I was over confindent that what I did would cure the shudder. I do put on alot of miles,so it would be a good test to see how long this Mod will last. Do I get to keep my old basket or is this a exchange program. John I thought I had the problem solved when I found the rear throttle body loose. I thought the lean condition was causing the rough in the motor.

But I have ridden since and found the shudder is still there and really bad when their is a load on the clutch in to rpm range. And riding two up is just not fun and the wife is freaking out about all the shuddering is going on. It took me a while to figure what was going on,because I had never had a V-twin and the vibrations that the motor creates were unfamilar to me,so I dismissed it too just a normal operating V-Twin.

It could be much harder knocking washers into an SV basket. There are those six extra springs within the main six that you might strugle to hold out of the way for the washer to slide past. The improvement should be better than in DL's because one end of these small springs misses it's intended seat at one end. Go see picture 9 on that picture of four I posted earlier. The nick in the top of this spring is where all the load is carried on that corner. You will see no such mark on the other side because it does not touch anything. All it does is slide past the spring keeper plate and add to the rattle at idle and chudder under load.

I took a 5, mile SV basket to bits at the weekend. It knocks the alloy stops just like all the others I had in bits. Such a low mileage I would say this one was knocking and chuddering at less that 2, miles. There is very little movement before the gear hits the stops. Again this is due to the inner spring pockets having eaten the equivalent of 2. Pictures and movies available if I get time. For now I estimate that they eat in at an average rate of 1mm for each 5, miles. And 2mm for first 2, miles because everything is new. People are putting up with slight chudder from just after new.

They don't realise just how bad it is because it creeps in so slowly. Many come to these bikes from four cylinder engines and will also have a car so think some vibration is normal or a characteristic.

They only realise just how bad it is when they try another bike or get a modified basket fitted, and of course when they buy a bike second hand and get to know it over a short time, or the previous owner might let on it's cheap because it chudders. This is just the same as worsening brakes being compensated for as they go off. You ride that bit more carefully without realising it. You only appreciate how poor they had become when you get them sorted out. I have been losing power on and off all day. Big storms have brought alot of wind and rain the last two days and for the whole week to come.

So if U don't hear from me that is why.

No customer reviews

OK Also thanks Terry. Hats off to you guys! I've not thoroughly read and thought about what the naysayers are spouting but simply looking at the pictures of the mod and knowing what I know about metals I don't yet see how this couldn't be a long term fix. I bought my Vee new and from day one it never felt as smooth as I thought a modern motorcycle should be and even though I don't believe I'm experiencing the dreaded chudder yet I wouldn't be surprised if this mod does wonders on new bike also. Things have changed a bit. I didn't get a response about where to send the basket Terry modified so I sent it back to him today.

I also included another basket for him to trade or swap or whatever. He's in TX so it should be to him in 2 days. I'll wait to hear from BlueByU. I think he may be having trouble with weather out there I'll send it to him if he still wants it. Recent findings after stripping a few more early DL baskets. Much of my work so far has been SV and later DL based. Looks like the incidence of post hitting on the early DL's is nothing like so common as on the later version.

Yet people are sending them for strip and repair complaining of the chudder. The spring seats don't eat into the alloy so bad. The springs are still in very good condition. Just the inner spring plate shuffles about and leads to very bad wear. Explains the extreme vibration that you can stop momentarily with the clutch lever.

It's widely reported people do this by pulling the clutch lever in to take up the slack in the release mechanism. It stops the vibration because the clutch release bearing centres the pressure plate which is in direct contact with the outer friction plate. You get a temporary extra bearing holding the clutch true. Now if you have the early basket and get the vibration to go with the lever you probably have a badly worn inner spring plate.

I hear a littel noise when starting from a dead stop, and only in first gear. It seems to be originating from the clutch area of the motor. Is this the noise that ya'll are talking about? Very much a "vibration" but not symetrical like normal power pulses from a cylinder firing.

Noise is associated with it. A growling noise when going thru the "zone" - rpm as you upshift. Other noises are likely the springs rattling in the windows they are held in. It just feels like the engine is very rough. I suspect that most owners with several thousand miles on their Vee would be VERY surprised after a ride on a Vee with a modified basket. The difference in smoothness is remarkable. We should have a few more ride reports come in over the next week or so.

Thanks to Rick I have a basket that I have taken apart and hope to post some pictures that will finally make sense of what is going on and why shimming the springs seems to be working so well. There is no way a whole spring is coming out of even the early style windows. Quite possible for a piece of one to come out should it fracture off. I have worked on early DL, late DL, and SV baskets and while I have only disassembled the one from Rick, I do use some very bright light and mirrors to look into what has been called high wear areas.

I try to get a feel of the hub area for movement and so far I have observed nothing that can be felt. If that were not the case the ride reports would certainly bring that to our attention. While I am sure tolerances in a "NEW" basket would be tighter in the Belleville washers and such I don't think that is the root cause of chudder. When you can rotate the aluminum basket and the steel drive gear in different directions by hand until the springs take up slack you have to think that the assembly would have a hard time absorbing torque and averaging it out.

I say averaging out because it is just as important for the springs to limit movement as they return to "center" or whatever position you would call it after absorbing the power pulse. The only wear I consistenly see is a footprint of the spring in the aluminum casting.

I am seeing almost no wear in the steel components. I am SURE that reducing slop in the springs will greatly diminish further wear in these areas. I believe that the shim acts as a damper for side to side spring motion by giving the spring a larger seat to sit on.

V-Strom Riders International

That in itself would lower wear. I hope to post some pictures next week that show what that looks like from angles not seen before. Someone must remember this picture of a twisted, fractured spring? The broken spring had skewed sideways as the gear web pushed on it. The spring was close to the original length but looked just as if a road roller had run over it. Squashed sideways so it was flat and the gear just slipped past it. Some part of the spring had broken off and come out of the window. I remember the bit had gone between the basket and hub and came to rest on the inside of the basket between the first drive plate and basket.

This was definately an early basket with the large spring windows. Someone must remember where this picture is posted. I am certain it's on a DL site and not the SV as they never had the large window baskets. I will post pictures of the early worn DL basket I have in for repair once I check with it's owner. I have recorded it as having less that 8, miles on it from new. I must check it's history with the sender once more. The steel gear stays good but the soft alloy baskets hub wears big time.

There is one I have that even shows a wear lip in the bore and the inside of the damper assembly has smears of dark alluminium particles and powder on the spring plates that has worn out of the hub. Realshelby - does your stripped basket have signs of the gear hitting the alloy stop posts to the extent shown in my pictures of SV and later DL baskets? I'll have some pics soon but this basket shows light indentations from contact. It has 17K miles on it. Hinckley Engineering prototype 7 worked flawlessly! There is NO chudder to be found.

Thanks a million Terry! Bit of worthwhile information - sounds like he's had a few in bits himself. What is the damage that you typically see on these baskets? I'm working on getting mine out, I need to make a clutch holder bracket from some steels but it feels like there's a lot of play on it. Not only in rotation, but I can actually move it up and down a bit.

Also, my steels have uneven scuffmarks on them, they're not evenly worn. On the DLs I typically see a ton of rotational slop, a new unit you barely get any out of until it loads the damper springs, thrashed ones you simply turn turn with little force and spring seats wear so a bunch more rotational slop is observed. You also begin to see some in and out place on the worst of the worst ones too. There are a couple of belvil pressure washers used to hold tension from the basket to the gear, when these get weak or collapse you start to get the in and out play.

After that they beat the damper springs and seats so bad you will actually start to beat aluminum off the back side of the basket assembly can not see until drill rivets and press apart contaminating oil. A member here showed some good images of this. If you can easily turn the basket on the gear, I would not run it. I have not seen one catastrophically fail ever, but they are noisy, cause massive chatter, and will knock so bad you are embarrassed to ride your bike.

The DL I just finished up is such a pleasure to ride now. The owner told me it was never this good, even new, but it was so bad anyhing would feel way better. Sorry John posted this in the wrong thread first. Ok first test ride was short tonite. Will put a couple hundred miles on it tomorrow and report again tomorrow when I get back. This is using the housing that was sent to Rick I believe it's 3. All springs were rattling bad in my old basket.

Hi all I provide this picture so that people can understand what spragging the springs with washers or shims might be doing to combat the chudder. I do not repair or modify dampers with shims or washers. I need to make that clear as a few readers PM me mistakenly thinking I do it that way. As my promise the other day. Picture from a stock DL basket after less than 10, miles. This is taken of the inside of the spring windows you see on the concave side of the basket.

The ones that face to the outside of the bike and towards the centre hub of the clutch. It's a first version DL and everything but this keeper plate was in good condition - even the springs. The plate was loose vibrating back and forth as usual and all six slots worn like this. The springs had moved to the outside edge of their slots in the gear under centrifugal force. They had then slipped a little off the centre of the gear and towards the inner plate you see here.

They move outwards a little more as they do this so centrifugal force takes them to this same "uncomfortable position" every time the engine runs. Once there they wear the slots you see here in the hardened steel plate.

The spring rubs into the plate with every fire of the engine and could wear through if never attended to. Explains perhaps why Suzuki were changing under warranty without too much quible. The springs were still doing their job but making a noise as they vibrated the loose keeper plate about. When the engine stops the springs are no longer flung to the outside and appear loose and rattle. If they stay on that side of the gear then they are unlikely to try and wear the welded bridges off the other keeper plate. Always now in the same position because they will not fall from position when the engine stops so wear may be concentrated rather than shared out as intended.

I provide this picture so that people can understand what spragging the springs with washers or shims might be doing to combat the chudder. While there certainly is some wear shown one has to remember the part shown is simply a COVER plate to retain the springs. There are two of these in the basket assembly. The power is transmitted thru the big steel gear that runs off the crank to the aluminum clutch "basket". They won't all look like the one pictured, and I believe that taking the "slop" out of the springs with the shim method will reduce or eliminate the springs moving around in the pocket.

That would reduce the fretting shown in the picture above. Ride reports have all been very positive about the shimming mod fixing chudder. We will pull a couple of these modified baskets out of service to see how the shims are holding up when we get a bunch of miles on them. Till then if you want your basket modified and don't want to try it yourself send me a pm. The load route is from central gear web to one end of a spring, from the opposite end of the spring to the end of the slot in the cover plates end of slot shown and then from the plate cover as you call it to the alloy basket.

The outer "cover" is held to the basket by the rivets. The inner "cover" is not fastened - just the edges of the window you see in the picture pushes on the end of the alloy slot. Is the basket you have in bits early or later version? Either type you should be able to fathom how it works. Will ask for a movie to be posted showing the springs in the plate. This will show how the inner plate the one worn in the picture passes the load from the springs into the alloy basket.

Well, if that is the case how does the aluminum basket show wear from the springs? I may be off on some of the science of how the basket works, but there are too many contradictions in what you write.

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I'll stick with what is working and perfect it from there When the rivets are in place, doesn't it stop a lot of that slop? As promised I finally got some time to take some pictures of the basket The basket shown is a 17, mile 2nd generation DL basket. This pic is the important parts shown in order: This pic below is the assembly in the "unload" position.

I don't know how often it would move this far in this direction. Maybe letting out the clutch when downshifting. The springs are so strong that with a shock spanner wrench and only one spring in place I can barely compress the spring! These are also an interference fit. It clearly shows the gap where it fits over the post. This is not intended to be a tight fit. That is why you see the pics of where it rubs a shiny spot on these.

These could be fitted with pins to lock this down if it were needed. It shows where the spring has been rubbing against it. Clearly the spring would have to be cocked somewhat to make a wear pattern like this. This happens to be the end of the spring where I fit the shims. I think the shims have a lot to do with stabilizing the spring. I made a spring to simulate what happens under load. I cannot compress the stock ones enough to show this! This is shown under "full load" simulating hitting the stops. It is hard to see in the pic but notice how the spring is not straight. Holding the assembly in hand and moving it back and forth clearly shows this.

Notice how much straighter the spring sits. It has a much larger surface to sit on when the shim is used. I think this is an overlooked reason the shims work. You can see the aluminum posts sticking up that are the posts or "stop" that limit movement. Not much more to say about the shim method for curing chudder in a Vee. I am working on sourcing some hardened shims just for extra insurance. Most are simply too thick. I have gotten to where I can get the shims in with little force.

If you are doing this on your own, study the pics on how I cock the shim with the screwdriver special tool at just the right angle to start it past the big steel gear. That is the secret but VERY hard to put in words! I have used a few different styles of welds. I am comfortable that any of them will do what they need to do. I do believe the SV basket would be best all around, but the DL baskets seem to work fine.

I simply suspect the extra springs in the SV work better and might last longer. We need to get a bunch of miles on these to see if they hold up long term. If you are not comfortable doing this yourself send me a pm. So far the results are good, in fact very good. It is a learning experience and I appreciate the reports we get from those that take the time to keep us up to date. I've decided that I want that clutch basket back! Thanks for taking the time to cut that apart and paint and photograph everything.

I'm trying to follow you there but I'm having a bit of difficulty because I'm not familiar with the names of the parts and the way it all works. I know these things are easy to understand when they are in your hand, but trying to assemble its movement in my head from photographs and text is difficult. I was wondering if you could label a few parts or draw in arrows pointing to the parts or affected area you are talking about in your text.

That might help me a great deal: I understand what you show here but that's probably because I have been running prototypes, stripping and re-engineering the inside of these for close to a year now. I have a new machine tool going in next week and I should be able to handle more orders and get the cost down. It's been expensive for anyone other than European's up to now. Hope I have to turn less requests back from then on. Your demostration spring used in your section through the damper has slipped out of line for two reasons. First you have cut away the spring window that would support it's left end when in service.

Second you have cut the end off the spring so the left end is not finished as a spring should be. It has a sloping end so is bound to go out of line. By mistake you have rotated the spring about 90 degrees in your picture with the washer so the sloping end takes it out of line the other way. The relative positions of the hardened steel spring seats in the two plates is crucial in getting a chudder free repair. My re-engineering pays very close attention to this. Explained inhere and on SV sites. Thats why your washers tighten everything up and so far seem to work.

I went through that idea early in my prototypes. I recomend you now take an earlier version to bits and you will see the excess travel and post hitting is not a problem it's hardly a problem in the second version you show here. You got to do this as it really is the key to why the washers work.

You will also see how it may not last very long. Will post one for you if it's not there. I posted so much there and on SV sites about these dampers that I forget. Plus I send pictures of the wear and repair to my customers individual baskets with serial number and certificates. A lifetime to build a good reputation - just one slip up to wreck it.

I have a concern that washers are going to be used to make a bike fit to sell. Perhaps in some parts of the world where consumer law is not so tight and may leave new owners who pay good money for a bike with a nasty problem looming down the road. Realshelby, you've done a great job of disassembling, cutting, painting, and photographing the basket parts and their interrelationship.

Like Rick, I have been struggling for quite some time trying to understand how the various parts worked together without having had one in my hands and without seeing one disassembled. You have done a great service to all us Vee and Wee owners!! If I now understand things correctly, the main gear drives the springs , which drive the inner plate driving plate , which drives the top plate driven plate , which drives the basket. It appears that when the driving plate is allowed to move too far, it hits the stops. What appears to allow it to move too far is the cumulative spring force being too low.

I think that some of the springs being loose and having some free play, collectively don't exert enough force to prevent the driving plate from hitting the stops or that springs looseness themselves contributes to the vibration and chudder. Since all of the springs have such high spring rates, a small amount of initial defection via the shims amounts to a very large preload force which is now large enough to prevent the driving plate from excess movement and thereby not hitting the stops or eliminating the springs from rattling around causing vibration and chudder.

At this point, that's what it appears like to me. Again, thanks Realshelby for all of yours and the others for helping us to understand and to correct the problem. Here is a sectional drawing of the clutch and damper for DL. This is slightly less complex than the SV but the damper parts are the same on both bikes. Find the teeth on the larger gear. These have horizontal dash dot dash lines throught them - top left of centre and bottom left of centre - follow from here down or up the main gear webs into the heart of the damper. Ignore everything to the right of the letter C as that half shows the main friction plates and clutch hub which are not the subject of the damper issues.

Top half of picture shows the rivet and two spring keeper plates either side of the gear web. Bottom half shows section through the spring and spring keeper plates either side.

I can also use this drawing to show how "the test for clutch chudder" works. PM or e-mail me with questions or we can discuss in the open with posts. I will see if I can find a program to add some text and highlights to the pictures I posted. What I cannot show in the still pics is how the spring acts as it goes thru its motion. You can clearly tell that as the contact points the spring sits on change the angle of the spring changes slightly. That is why there is still chudder when the basket is not hitting the "stops". If the chudder only came when the basket bottomed against the stops the aluminum would be quickly worn away.

I can certainly see that it would be easy to lock the inner plate to the aluminum basket, the holes are already cast into the aluminum and the recieving area on the inner plate is already punched out. An exact size steel dowel pin seated at an exact elevation above the aluminum hub would hold the inner plate in place. Until then it sure seems the shims eliminate the chudder, and that is all I started out to fix! Let's get some miles on the modified baskets to see how long they last.

I'll figure something out. The loose plate is visible in my video and I have been going on and on about it for a long time. People interested in taking my modification have a full explanation of the problem in their basket. Once they understand they go ahead. You sure confirm your understanding when you write - "I can certainly see that it would be easy to lock the inner plate to the aluminum basket, the holes are already cast into the aluminum and the recieving area on the inner plate is already punched out".

Do it some other way - just don't use the holes you mention. I locked my first plate your red one back in early with the help of SV forum members. Easy way was to just rotate your inner spring keeper plate by degrees and it fits lovely and solid. Proved beyond doubt it cures the chudder and idle knock all in one. Unfortunately they come back just as bad or worse after less than 2, miles. The plate is loose again when you strip it down.

Took two months prototype to complete that little bit. Don't use the six holes in the middle to hold the plate as you suggest. These are oil mist catchers for lubrication and thats poor enough without being blocked. Don't load those alloy spokes of the basket with this as they are very thin close to the centre bearing. You need a good engineering design for your modification. Good to see that now you also agree "there is still chudder when the basket is not hitting the stops".

Was that the case or not? Your washers work because they or perhaps just one of them are constantly rubbing on the inner spring retainer plate. They hold it still enough to stop the resonance starting up. The springs and washers now have to fit into a space designed for just the spring. Only problem is the edge of the washer or washers doing the work will wear rapidly and one day will be small enough to come out or break up and move sideways. Halt the resonance of the plate and you stop the secondary wear in other parts taking place that is the real chudder. You need a good engineering design for modification.

They need the work when new or just after or they go down hill very quicky. Time in the machine shop and a paid designer is not cheap but it's the only way to cure them long term. Sharealike, once again you are putting words in my mouth. I have never been against your way of modding the basket, other than I want to be absolutely sure you have a foolproof way of replacing the rivets.

We could argue for weeks over this and that being the cause of chudder and other issues with the basket. The plates are loose from new and I simply mentioned it would be easy to lock them. I don't know that it would be effective against chudder, it would simply keep the spring from contacting the aluminum like it does now. What I do know for an absolute fact is that everyone that has installed a shim modified basket has said the chudder is gone! How long the shims last is yet to be proven. I only have about 1K on my Vee's shims, but I think we will get a feel for how they hold up with Rick and a couple other testers that seem to rack up the miles.

I am going to try to use hardened shims on the next one I do for someone, I have finally found the ones I think will fit properly. The real story is that if the shims last for at least 10, miles they are proving you wrong. Will they last beyond that?

That is why I am using the hardened shims, as insurance. Now that I have said that I hope I don't have to eat crow! Y'all send me some more baskets. I'm all fired up and ready to do more! I'm still having trouble reading Shearalike. Your explanations are overly complex. I can say in one sentence what takes you 2 paragraphs. Are you upset or angry that Realshelby has discovered a way to successfully modify the stock basket without disassembling it?

Are you upset that he is doing it for free? Or that it is simpler and equally effective as yours. Let's hear from the people that have used your basket. Rick If you can make my words easier to understand then be my guest - please go ahead. I may slip into industry jargon, get very specific and use technical terms. That's just how you need to be when describing a complex problem in words and pictures.

We could all get the point over with a half hour face to face and the bit's in our hands. Remember here in Europe we have about ten different languages to deal with. I use English so that the majority can understand. The modifications I make address the points of wear found after stripping over twenty baskets. They make up for the weakness that cheap mass produced parts can often show. So long as I cover my costs and people are happy with the modifications I am happy. My background and reason for doing this? When I left school I got an apprenticeship with a company that built tanks, cranes, excavators and walking draglines.

I spent four years in every department from steel plate and castings in at one end - to the finished liveried vehicles to the customer out of the other. Then I worked in the design drawing office for a good many years on new product development. Much of this was vehicle transmission and engine installation work. Day release and college two nights a week for ever so I could really understand why everything was built like it was. I just have to know how it all works and always had bikes, cars and anything else with an engine in it to bits all my life.

I had to start prototyping with these engines and get to the bottom of their vibration problems. A major thankyou to the other guys for sharing their findings as it helped me narrow down where to go and what to try next. I have a string of DL customers sending me baskests from all round the world to modify. I keep the springs in use as Suzuki intended but one of my prototypes was solid steel pins not welded so I could reverse it and this behaved just the same as one with the springs which I settled on as fit to adopt without risk of long term damage to the engine or gearbox.

Many DL owners are on their second or third basket and even send me their brand new ones to mod before they fit them. Some also fit SV clutches so they get the back torque limiter but these only last as long as the standard DL basket without my modification. These engines are fantastic units once you banish those vibes. They are built just so right except for this little issue which is shaking them to bits well before their time. My mission is to make them right for all. Sharealike, We know, and understand what Realshelby is doing to modify the basket very clear pictures. I must say that I'm almost clueless as to what your 'fix' is.

Please post detailed pics of your machined parts, and assemblies. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. This gave people the confidence to knock washers in and shortcut to what feels like a solution when you ride the bike. It's relatively better than what people had before. Perhaps even much better than they had before given the shocking state of wear I find inside when I strip them down. My modification corrects the original manufacturers faults and those points of wear. It's very complex and even pictures I also considered a movie are only going to show part of the solution and story.

My concern is that it will be copied, wrongly interpreted and perhaps shortcut as before. If someone does it wrong then my modification gets the blame and where does that leave us all? Perhaps without a trusted long term fix. And all this gets fine tuning as I learn more with each one I do. People who understand PM me and we exchange information by e-mail and often a telephone conversation. Nine out of ten people who do this go ahead once they fully understand what needs to be done.

A few think they might try themselves but soon give up on that once they realise the machine tools that are required. They send their basket for free inspection and I propose how to sort the problems found in each. I keep a record of all this and there is further support available should it ever be required. Not had any back yet because I do a top quality job aimed at lasting the life of the bike. I make a proven and correctly designed and engineered modification. The results are truly fantastic. Little or no clutch chudder in the "chudder zone" and no clatter from the clutch damper at low speeds in town, slow turns.

And it banishes that horrible "tock, tock, tock" at idle that you get with a hot engine once the newness has worn off any new basket fitted. Every bike is going to need this fix one day. That's why I took this on. Get those baskets out and off to me for a chudder free spring. PM me is the starting point. Everyone has an opinion. Work out if that costs in by cutting post one way. Buying in the US is good value for me just now. Anything converted from Euros such as bike and auto parts is pricey. Nothing spurs me on more than a bit of friendly competition and banter.

You might wish to appologise if it was intended I took it any other way. Clutch Basket Modifications continue here in Europe. There should be a few more ride reports out soon - http: Thank you to those who have braved the cold, rain, snow and ice to strip, ship and then re-fit my modified baskets.

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