The Great Christian Travesty, Part 4: Who Really Should Lead the Church?

Come Hell or High Water, part 4

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Not about anything else. I personally think each church organization HQ baptist, catholic, methodist, etc should collect the offerings and ensure all in the church are taken care of — including the pastor. There is nothing in scripture to support this teaching that the church is responsible for supporting a pastors lifestyle … it is pure pride and arrogance and misinterpretation of the scriptures.

Like it or not, you are not in line with scripture, Mary. It should be the other way around, the leaders living lavishly ought to be caring and meeting specific needs of the poor … where and in what church is this occurring? Taking scripture out of its context, using it as weaponry, misinterpreting and using half truths are the tools of deception and profiting is the goal, period. There is simply no other justification for money to even play a part.

God knew what he was doing when it came to money. The early church understood this and provisions like food and shelter were provided as there was need. Not this ridiculousness we see going on today. A collection was taking up once for the poor and sent to Jerusalem … today the church, which is billions rich and tax exempt, begs for money repeatedly week after week after week.

Go educate yourself about the Jewish Apostles and the way. Ancient Israel and the early church did not run the church like it is ran today. They were a true family, inclusive, caring, loving, discerning. I believe if pastors truly cared for God and his people, he would gladly get a job like the ones who have a job and volunteer for free, while a pastor draws a salary, how arrogant and entitled for a pastor to do this, they just wanna be a God themselves.

Then they would delegate and everyone would have purpose … oh, the pride of some men. I believe any pastor drawing a salary and living off the backs of the week is no man of God at all but a man of self! Now go get a job! Thank you soo much for explaining this. I always wondered how that was to be. Now that I realize it is of the increase.. You do not know how much of a burdon has been lifted.

I always felt so bad for not tithing properly that I often simply did not. I always made sure my kids I am a single mom have offering and I would put in a love offering but the tith was such a burdon that I could not do and always felt so guilty. GrimmEngineer you will never know what that information has done for me. I encourage you to study all the Scriptures that deal with the commanded tithe.

If you do, you will find that God never commanded anyone to tithe his or her money to the Temple. You will also find that in the New Testament, tithes were never commanded for, carried to, collected in, or controlled by the Church. God does not want tithe of money, and He never required people living on Gentile soil to tithe.

Your tithe is what you want to give to God. Whatever you do decide to give to him should be given cheerfully and without resentment. And remember, it is optional, but this is the only thing that Jesus ever said to test him on. Pray about it, search scripture, and then give what you are led to give.

I hope that in turn you will see those storehouses opened up and poured out upon you for faithfully rising up. As far as criticizing a church for paying their Pastor — he not only works for God, but he works for his people. It is only fair that he is paid so that he can provide for his family. Would you work endless hours a day, 7 days a week without an income? Almost everyone produced something.

Whether it be cattle, or plants or other goods. When you paid your tithes you gave your best cattle, or sheep, or produce etc. For example, Alma My view is this: Old Testament, you owe a tenth of your first fruits to God who has supplied; New Testament, you were bought with a price and every dime, resource, or minute in your possession belongs to God who supplies your needs in order to expand his kingdom and glorify him.

Why limit it to a tenth? To give to the churh is not just monetary. Share your money, time, talents, and resources. It is like any community, you should give as you receive. It is about being in relationship. Its not a monetary relationship… that is not Biblical. You give to God in faith… not out of expectation that you will receive anything in return. God already gave His life for you… He owes you nothing else.

Yet you offer no counterpoint. How is anyone to know if YOU have any scriptural understanding? Without keeping his promises. Words as in words in the Bible are cheap. God broke His promises to me, if there were any promises at all. Do they ask for your salary slip? Why do people fight here about what the tithe is? Tithe is not a tax! It is a free will offering. They also know that no one can out give God. Unless Saint Peter is expecting all of your check. John have you not read the Bible lately? Never saw a miracle in the bible where Jesus gave money to the poor beggars.

They knew in their knowers that they need the bread of life to survive. Muslims boast they pray 5 times a day. Christians pray without cease. At least we pray like Jesus pbuh , with our faces to the ground.. Check out how Jesus pbuh prayed in Matt. Tithing is a covenant giving by individuals who foremost have a relationship with God and by grace, understands the principle behind it.

It is possible for someone to love God deeply but just happen not to accept tithing. No amount of argument can make anyone to accept the principles of tithing. Jacob promised God he was going to give it. No one told him to do so. Jacob never said God asked him for it but probably he learnt about tithing from his own father. In almost 40 years of my work experience I have found out how it works. I can speak for myself. I owe no obligation to anyone on this matter to disclose whether or not I am a tither, it is an issue between me and my God.

God has been very generous to me over the years in many ways. More than issues about money, my everyday desire is to please God by the help of the Holy Spirit. Actually, God does not need my money but many people around me do. My attitude towards money can reveal a lot about the content of my heart. Please, I hope you are not offended? Who cares, tithing doesnt save.

God does not condemn us,Usually its christians quarreling amongst them selves, how better than others one is because you tithe? Huh what Bible do christians read? Feed orphans weekly etc etc not not to pay for a building,pastor ,lights,smoke screens etc etc ,entertainment,extra ministries like coffee shops ,blah blah blah. Its Grace my friends no matter where you are with God. All fall short of Gods Glory, you aswell no matter how much you tithe. No, no one needs to tear anybody down.

It is a matter of explanation based on observations, and personal experience derived from many years of active study and application of the Word of God in a personal life. Perhaps you have read in the Bible also that faith without work is dead? What gives you the impression that those who tithe do not give to the homeless and support widows and orphans? How did you come to the conclusion that those who tithe do not obey the instruction that they should love God wholeheartedly and love others as themselves? Who told you to compare people on the basis of whether or not one pays tithe?

I think it is also a generalised assumption to think that all Churches where there are faithful tithers the money thus generated by the Church goes to the ministers alone or spent on fanciful buildings and frivolous expenses. As I mentioned in my last post, not even all those who are genuine believers accept the principles of tithing. That being the case, what chance then does an unbeliever has of receiving sound teaching on tithing?

This is not to suggest in anyway that you are not a believer it is just that at this point in time you have not yet accepted the teaching on tithing. It does not follow that you cannot receive it in the future if you are already a true believer or become one in the future. No one can earn any favour from God on the basis of good works alone but surely God rewards obedience, faithfulness and service. Tithing was widely practiced in the old testament as suggested by Malachi 3: There is absolutely nothing to suggest that those who gave tithe in the old testament failed in their duty to take care of widows and orphans.

In the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ He did not say people should not give tithe. He only condemned those who failed in their duty to take care of their parents under the cloak that gave their money to the temple service and as such they had nothing left to give to their parents.

We can talk about tithing from now till the cow comes home without coming to any reasonable agreement. That is what God said. Just obey and see what happens in your life. You may find out that that will be the end of all argument on the issue as far as you are concerned. Of course it is inclusive! In conclusion, as someone rightly pointed out on this forum, we should all go back to the Church and support the work of God in the Church and not look for excuses about faults in the Church.

I hope you understand where I am coming from on this? Before anyone can please our Holy God, we must receive his Holy Spirit as it is written in John 14; This is what Jesus wants you to know and have Peter. Jesus is calling us into repentance and into a covenant with Him through the Holy Spirit which He pray to God to sent to those who wants it. It is a teacher and a guide and to have true worship with Jesus. We must ask Jesus for His Holy Spirit to live in us. We must surrender to Jesus and be obedience to His will not our will.

Those receive His Holy Spirit and seeking Him, He will open your eyes and mind to the real fellowship with Him until his return for His chosen people who were obedience in receiving His gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the living sacrifice to redeem man back to Him and to fulfill the the promise He gave to Israel and redeem man from their sins, which Adam sin. Lets receive His gift to man Acts 2;38 and than seek Him about how we can financially help in spreading the word of God all over the world, in mission field, etc.

We live in a world now that it takes money to paid for mission work. We have to let God guide us to the ministry He want us to work in and is truly called by Him. If we do our parts as Jesus disciples than let Jesus deal with the wick ministry and people, they are not getting away. If we are struggling, let fast to help someone in more need, or help in the church, cut the grass, pick up trash along the road to your church and community and watch God turn your situation around and cancel outstanding debts we owe.

He will show His people favor with man. So Instead of us fussing our paying tithes we need to focus on having what Jesus said we need to have to return back with Him when he return. I will not hear from you Peter but I pray that Jesus will open your eyes from being a debtor against His chosen people and be a Disciple of His word. Love you in Jesus Name my brothers and sister who will read this message. You seem to suggest that people who pay tithe love others less and turn blind eyes to the poor.

Tear you to pieces? Look my brother, this is not a theological debate or intellectual argument. It is about faith, commitment, level of grace, and depth of relationship with God. It is also about experience and exposure. The end of all arguments over this is to try God and see. NOT what God wants of us. He is very specific in that as He states…. I feel that means f the r us ALL to make a heart felt decision to do what is right ….

The tithe is an OT Law, 1 of If we are to honor 1 we are to honor them all. The tithe was instituted by GOD for his chosen people, the Israelites. God instructed his chosen on how to handle the tithe, who would benefit from it and that it was to be eaten before the Lord. Do pastors today eat the tithe bf the Lord? No, they live lavishly off the backs off their own flock. They are liars and deceivers. The tithe was not for preachers or christians, it was for the Levite priests and the people of Israel, the Jews and it was also to be brought to Jerusalem for the celebration held there, it was a covenant arrangement.

Any man today teaching tithe law keeping is a false teacher! Thanks, but I do not see it that way. Nonetheless, I also know that there are many other genuine men and women of God out there. My offering is part of my worship. Once I drop it in the offering bowl my obligation ends. I trust God to be able to hold accountable those who thereafter handle the money. In fact, I do not loose sleep over any offering that I hand over after I have done it.

Tithing is an immense burden and stress to single parents, abandoned by their spouses, and who are raising their dependent children alone. When you are hungry, and without a secure shelter over your head, it is a horrible pressure, and a horrible guilt. From a human point of view you are right. Any service that is done involuntarily would naturally be burdensome.

When a man truly falls in love with a woman there is no telling what he can do for a newly found love. When the motivation is borne out of love and desire for service, people can for example walk a thousand mile from Europe to Jerusalem under inclement conditions just for the desire to do it. Others can go to places to preach the gospel even when they know they may not return alive. Precisely, that was what Jesus did for us. He gave His life for us so that we can live. We cannot give more than what Jesus already gave us.

You seem to care about poor single parents. There is one very poor single parent I read about in the bible. She wanted to cook for her son and herself their last meal and thereafter there was no hope of any more food coming their way. Then a prophet who I do not envy his position came on the scene and asked for a share out of that meal.

From a human point of view that prophet would have been condemned as a heartless man.

Casting the Light of the Word on "works of darkness" (Ephesians 5:11)

The poor single mother was willing to share her last meal with a stranger and then a miracle followed. If you cannot give when you are poor you are most unlikely going to give even if you have plenty. I have found out that those who are willing to give the little they have not under compulsion always come back smiling with a testimony to share. The church is always complaining about us not giving when they refuse to hold up their end of the deal. Sorry my ignorance about you here, have you approached your family? I help and give the the person standing in front of me at any given time, whom G-d sent for me to help.

G-d never demanded a communist system. In fact no system, since we are not of this world, only in it. Tithing of time and talents skills and gifts are worthy tithe. But when did the Lord ever accept anything as a tithe that was different than animals and crops??? Why must we become children in our understanding? Such are no so abundant upon the earth that there is just no money to go around anymore. That sentence of yours I see hundreds of times in all forums.

There is plenty of money, it is just in the wrong hands. There is also opportunity to change ones financial future, and it is not god who makes that happen. I have been able to see my situation much more clearly since I left religion than I ever did with any of the Pastors, teachers, and advisers I had in my life as a believer.

I was always taught to spend less not like I had much to spend rather than to learn how to make more. There really is a failure in the American educational and religious systems when it comes to money. God will not provide! We must provide for ourselves. So governments print dollars or whatever other fiat denominations, we need our Father for our to give the increase for our living in HIS way.

The church as you see it inthe building with a bell tower or not, consists of people such as yourself, hapless people who sit with lots and lots of worries. Most of us now no longer have the means for any extravagance, our increase is in the safety of our children, parents, husbands wives. So sorry, I know you have so many needs. Judy, I think you missed my point, and where I am coming from. The church is an organization of people. It reflects their desires. While every society is different, there are similarities; I must pay for food, clothing, and shelter; I assume you do as well.

We must stay alive, because no one can see beyond the grave- is there a life on the other side? No one has seen that. There are many stories, both Christian and hundreds of other traditions; none of them agree on what it is. We only know of this life and this dimension. If you are depending on an invisible being, then prove your trust is valid by waiting for food and clothing to come to you miraculously, and leave your doors open. Otherwise, your vain claims are meaningless.

Tithes were never from firstfruits. Not sure where you heard it was, but wherever you got it from was wrong. Notice the firstfruites were taken by the children of Israel to the House of God and into the chambers of the storehouse. But the tithes, they took to the Levites. The Levites, in turn, would take a tithe of the tithe to the House of God into the chambers of the storehouse.

Tithes and firstfruits were not the same… they were taken to two different places. Also, the Old Testament says tithes were given at the end of the harvest, while the firstfruits were from the beginning of the harvest. The pastor is not a Levite Priest and has no authority to take the tithe. My Bible says bring the tithe into His store House. These modern day con artist pimpsters equate their churches to the storehouse.

That too is a lie and false doctrine.. This is just a play on words and a method of deception to trick sheeple into giving. Second, during Old Testament times, a storehouse was just that, a storehouse. The children of Israel took the firstfruits to the House of God, into the chambers. The Levites, in turn, would take a tithe of the tithe to the House of God, into the chambers. It is quite clear that the two, firstfruits and tithes could not have been the same thing. One went one place, the other went to another place. Also, firstfruits were nothing more than a basket or handful of fruit from the beginning of the harvest.

Tithes were always paid at the end of the harvest. These two verses alone prove that tithes and firstfruits were not the same. They reveal that the children of Israel took firstfruits to the House of God, while the tithes they took elsewhere. One might feebly attempt to say that the Levites were at the Hosue of God to receive the tithes from the children of Israel, but the text proves they could not have been.

LoL The argument fails in light of the clear text of the Bible. If you are supporting your family and living a good and honest life, and giving what you can to support the church, then I doubt it matters. Perhaps you all are the problem… ya think? He is a God of multiplication. He took a lunch for one small lad and fed 5, with it. And they were never commanded for, carried to, collected in, or controlled by the New Testament Church.

The commanded tithes were for the children of Israel only, and then only once they crossed the Jordan and entered into the promised land. That the church expects so much more from a woman I have my own story to tell about that. This is the BIG stuff that others are ignoring and so are losing many in their congregations. The Church is not listening. Many are leaving for the very reasons Pastor Pavlovitz has written.

Sometimes, it is because of a spirit of rebellion, hating all that has to do with God. Other times, it is because the leadership, those who should have a heart of compassion, do not show the heart of compassion to those who need it. And so, those who need to feel loved and cared for, often return to the world where they at least had seeming friends.

I was the organist, pianist and soloist at my church by the age of I was told that god had a special place for women in this world and I was doing a great job of it and to stay where I belonged. There is nothing wrong with a woman getting a religious education. Well this was WAY back. Here are the passages to which I was referred. I saw it for what is was… and still is.

Ome only need flip to the 1 Corinthians 11 to prove the pastors wrong.

Says a woman can prophesy if her head is covered. To prophecy means to bring forth the Word. A woman can indeed bring the Word. I have heard many a woman butcher the Word, but I have also heard many shuck out the corn when preaching as well. Women who are educated in the proper way to minister can be just as effective at preaching the Word as any man… if they are Spirit led. Someone earlier in this thread suggested that the discussion would descend into bickering about irrelevant technicalities, and it did!

I have never felt so close to my creator as when I was in the midst of a desert or forest, deep in meditation, and usually alone. Sorry about that Art Dickinson. It is sad that the church may not be what we hope it should be but with its many problems there are no alternatives to the Church. We should stay back to put the wrong right.

Staying in the desert occasionally to enjoy a deep meditation is perfectly okay because Jesus did the same thing but He went back to the temple to challenge orthodoxy. The leaders engineered His death for his effort. We should stay put to right wrong. It could take time. With genuine interest, intention, love, understanding and patient we can get there. Every fortune teller can say some stuff is going to happen. I am an atheist now and was then too. I spend every waking moment trying to save people from religion. I will not rest until christianity is shelved in the same place as voodoo and people realize that there is not one true god but thousands of imaginary gods.

What is it to u what we believe. There is absolutely no way you could ever convince me god is not real…i know without a shadow of a doubt he is absolutely real. I know he is real more than I know my parents were real. And if u put a gun to my head right now and gave me a choice…live or die. What a poor pitiful place for you to be. To be your own god must be hard work. What happened to you or what did you see that made you so cynical? Just because people have not lived up to your lofty expectations does not mean that God does not exist.

But God is always here. He does not force Himself on anyone. And that statement about religion…I totally agree with what Mr Twain said that religion is foolish. God hates religion more than we do. Jesus said the greatest commandment of all is to love God with all our hearts and love our neighbor as ourselves. That shows that He knows that if we fulfill those two commandments we will be fulfilling the first 10 completely. If we love people and God we will not steal someones money, we will not murder people, we will not have affairs with their spouses. Nor does it make Him nonexistent.

How do you know this to be true? Is that not just another religion you are preaching? Do you know what you are talking about or is this just your imagination? What you learned growing up was nothing but vain religion. I learned it to. Take a read here.. You are equating religion and Christianity together…. Christianity is about a relationship between the Creator and the created, to restore all things back to its original state before sin entered in. The Church has committed many gross sins and errors over her long history. God bless all of you. People walk all thru the service speak out.

One brother must be seen and heard takes. The church only opens on Sunday. Your opinion does not mean that it is truth. You have not given proof that he is wrong only your opinion. Darrell, it is up to the person who made the assertion to provide proof, not the listener or the person who disagrees. Now, try to follow this… Words, stories, interpretations, verses in books, etc. That is who we need to question. Why does Paul SO drastically differ from the words of Christ? I can certainly understand you leaving that church, but you seem to have left all churches.

Do you think that pastors are the only ones who can be hyper critical? Perhaps you need to mature before you take up ministry.. Religion has influenced cultures and societies for thousands of years, and vice versa. It is internally diverse and is constantly changing and redefining itself.

Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are Really Leaving the Church

They are passed down according to the beliefs of the parents and the country in which one was born. Yet, some people cling to those faiths and attempt to elbow their way into governments, schools, personal lives and the lives of our children. The two worst offenders in this respect are Christianity and certain factions of Islam. No, pastors are not the only hyper-critical beings — definitely not.

However, there are those critical people who suggest that others mature before they know a thing about that person. What is it to any of you reprimanding strangers. Pastors do have a lot of influence for good and sadly some times not so good. Endurance is a test of our allegiance and commitment to God not to men. A church and religion not faith are the biggest money making schemes ever foisted on a believing people. Oh, he changed his mind all right. That pastor is dead. I think people have decided to model god after themselves rather than the other way around as is stated in Genesis.

Nothing else matters, Alethea, nothing! In spite of what this article states, there are tons of good churches out there where the people love God and would welcome you. But if your mind is made up about stepping into a church, as you say it is, then it still comes back to John 3. The Bible is the final authority, not man and what he may say. Thank you for your concern Michael. The kindest, most generous, gracious, loving, supportive, understanding and charitable people? They have just as much, if not more, morality than Christians.

What matters is my relationship with my creator. I wonder why that is? I think it has more to do with the fact that they are afraid to have their faith shaken. People need to feel a sense that they will never die but live on forever. Fear of ones own mortality is the biggest thing religion has going for it.

There is religion, Thomas, and there is the Truth. Jesus Christ is the Truth, not a religion. With religion you get to keep your life, but with Jesus Christ, you will lose it. Then death not just physical, but the loss of all things in this life no longer threatens you because you are crucified with Him and truly free. More on His ways at http: His work is subject also to certain phases of spiritual [67] and cyclic timing and to impressions from sources to be found on higher levels than those upon which He normally works. Just as human affairs have effects upon His action, so great "determinations" and "profound settlements within the will of God" also have their effects.

The human side or nature of the Christ, perfected and sensitive, responds to the invocation and to the appeal of men; His divine side or nature is equally responsive to the impact of energies, issuing from "the centre where the will of God is known. The bringing of good out of human so-called evil is no easy task; the vision of the Christ is so vast and His grasp of the Law of Cause and Effect, of Action and Reaction is such that the arriving at right decision as to activity and time is no simple one.

Human beings are apt to look at all that happens, or that could happen, from the purely human and immediate angle; they have little understanding of the problems, decisions and implications with which Christ is today faced. In these, His pledged disciples share. Their task is to develop "the mind that is in Christ" and as they do so, they will help make clear the way for "the coming of His feet," as the Bible puts it Heb.

Seeing life and events in the light of the spiritual values, as He does, will facilitate the giving out of the new teaching and will provide the skeleton structure of the new world religion, thus giving us a fresh view of divine intention and a living insight into the minds of Those Who implement the divine will and are the engineers of humanity's future. Let us, therefore, try and appreciate not only the opportunity which Christ has to help us which is the usual presentation , but let us look also at the crises and problems with which He is confronted as He faces the work which He must do.

In the life of every disciple, particularly of those who face certain great expansions of consciousness, a point of crisis will come about. In that point of crisis, decisions are voluntarily or involuntarily made; having made them, the disciple then stands at a point of tension , with the decision behind him and the next step to be taken becoming clearer to his mental perception, and influencing his attitude to the future. When the work is done in the period of tension, then there comes what we might call the point of emergence.

This is both an emergence from and also an emergence into a field of experience. The Christ Himself is no exception to this threefold experience and—in order that we may understand more fully—let us apply these three phrases inappropriate as they basically are to the actions and the reactions of the Christ.

There is no crisis for Him in the sense that crises exist for us; there is no strain or stress attached to His point of tension; the parallel is, however, good enough to convey something to you of what has transpired within that state of awareness which distinguishes the spiritual Hierarchy; to this state of consciousness we can give the name of "spiritual perception," in contradistinction to the mental perception which is the human counterpart.

It must be remembered that the point of crisis, producing the point of tension to which the Christ may be regarded as voluntarily subjecting Himself is a hierarchical matter or event, because the entire Hierarchy is involved in the crisis. The reason for this is simple: A separative participation and attitude is unknown to [69] Them, for Their state of awareness is inclusive and in no way exclusive. Using, therefore, human terminology in order to interpret the divine reactions of the Christ and His disciples, it must be realised that the point of crisis which is responsible for hierarchical tension and for the eventual appearance or the emergence of the Christ, lies behind the Christ; it is in the field of long past experience.

The consequent point of tension is now controlling the affairs of the spiritual Hierarchy and its many groups of workers. The "point of decision," as it is called in all hierarchical circles, was reached during the period between the Full Moon of June, , and the Full Moon of June, The point of decision covered, therefore, nine years a relatively brief time ; it resulted in the decision arrived at by the Christ to re-appear or return to visible Presence on Earth as soon as possible, and considerably earlier than had been planned.

He is the Custodian of the Will of God. It was also made with the full understanding and cooperation of the Masters and the senior initiates. This was inevitably so, because Their participation and help were imperative. They also necessarily had to be with Him in thought, and cooperating mentally, because His reappearance connotes a great hierarchical approach to humanity and a great spiritual event. The decision was, nevertheless, the decision of the Christ and marked not only a point of crisis in His experience but a point of climax in His expression of divinity.

With all reverence and within the bounds of our human [70] understanding, it must be remembered that there is nothing static in the entire evolutionary process of our planet or of the cosmos; there is naught but process and progress, a moving on, an increasing attainment and a mounting achievement. To this great law of the universe, even the Christ Himself is subject. In all reverence again, let it here be pointed out that He too has moved on in His experience of divinity and is if it may be so expressed closer to the Father and to the One Universal Life than ever before. His comprehension and His apprehension of the Will of God is deeper and His fulfilment of that Will is more in line with the divine Purpose than it was in Palestine two thousand years ago.

There has necessarily been on the part of Christ a growing perception of the intention of the divine Mind, as it is embodied in that Identity to Whom we give the name of God. No longer need Christ, in agony say "Father, not my will but Thine be done"; He has today no personal will but only the will of His Father animates Him and the ability to make decisions which are a full expression of that divine Will. It is difficult to express His achievement in other words. Commentators have sought to explain away and gloss over the Gethsemane experience of the Christ, and to attribute what appears as weakness to an upsurging of Christ's humanity and, consequently, to a temporary submergence of His divine nature.

They have been forced into this position because of the prevalent theological dictum as to Christ's divine perfection—an absolute, sovereign and ultimate perfection to which He Himself never made the slightest claim. He is today nearer that perfection than He ever was when before on Earth. It was this divine unfoldment which made it possible for Him to make right choice, not only for Himself [71] but also for the spiritual Hierarchy, during the years of decision, prior to June, Under the divine will, He had to reappear on Earth in visible Presence.

He had to preside over the materialisation of the Kingdom of God on Earth, and He had to re-institute the Mysteries of Initiation in such a form that they would prove the basis of the new world religion. Above all, He had to reveal the nature of the will of God. That will is often regarded as a power by means of which things are done, situations are brought about, activities are instituted and plans are worked out, and often ruthlessly worked out.

This general definition is the easiest for men to formulate, because it is understood by them in terms of their own self-will, the will to individual self-betterment. This type of will is selfish and misunderstood at first, but tends eventually to selflessness, as evolution carries out its beneficent task.

Then the will is interpreted in terms of the hierarchical plan and the effort of the individual man becomes that of negating his original self-will, and seeking then to merge his will with that of the group—the group being itself an aspect of hierarchical effort.

This is a great step onward in orientation and will lead eventually to a change in consciousness. It is at this stage that most aspirants today find themselves. However, the will is in reality something very different to these expressions of it which exist in the human consciousness as men attempt to interpret the divine Will in terms of their present point in evolution. The clue to understanding is to be found in the words, "blotting out all form. Then the attractive power of the Hierarchy and of the Masters' groups of disciples supersedes the lower attractions and the lesser focal points of interest.

When these then assume their rightful place in consciousness, then the dynamic pull of the Will Aspect of divinity can be felt—entirely unrelated to form or forms, or to groups or a group. In the light of the Will of God, Christ made certain basic decisions and determined to carry them out in the relatively immediate future—the exact date of His coming being known only to Him and a few of His senior workers; yet all of these future events lie hid in a certain fundamental decision of humanity itself.

This decision is being arrived at through certain new trends in human thinking, and will be the result of a subjective human reaction to the decision already arrived at by the Christ and the spiritual Hierarchy, the Church invisible. The motivation for this reappearance is complete and settled. It is clearly perceived by the Christ. The work initiated by Him two thousand years ago must be completed; the new world religion must be inaugurated; the needs of a demanding, invocative humanity cannot be ignored; those steps which precede a stupendous hierarchical initiation in which the Christ is the leading Participant must be taken; the events which are symptomatic of the "time of the end" may not be delayed.

If one may venture to speak in such terms reverent and symbolical , the reward accorded to the Christ, as He announced His decision as final and irrevocable, was the permission or rather the right to use a certain great Invocation—never before granted—and to use it in two ways: As a hierarchical invocation, directed towards the "centre where the will of God is known.

As a world prayer, expressed in such phraseology that all humanity could intelligently use it. The right to use certain great Words of Power or "Stanzas of Direction" is never lightly accorded. The decision of Christ to appear again among men, bringing His disciples with Him, drew forth this permission from the Lord of the World, the Ancient of Days.

After this climaxing point of spiritual crisis and its consequent decision, a point of tension was reached and it is in this state of spiritual tension that the Church invisible is now working and planning, swinging the disciples of the Christ, active on Earth, into the same condition of spiritual tension. The success of Christ's return to visible Presence, as well as other factors related to His reappearance , are dependent upon happenings and contacts which are now taking place within this period of tension.

In any point of tension—no matter what the time factor may be—energy is being generated, held for future use, and focussed in such a manner or condition that its force can be directed wherever needed and whenever called for. This is necessarily a statement hard to understand. A point of tension is, symbolically, a storehouse of power. Today the energies which will be uniquely distinctive of the Kingdom of God are gathering momentum and assuming direction through the agency of the Masters of the Wisdom, in cooperation with the will of Christ.

Whilst this energy has been accumulating or mounting in potency ever since the Full Moon of June , three events of great moment in the living experience of Christ and, therefore, of the Hierarchy have taken place and [74] their effects are in process of consolidation. I can only make reference to them, for it is not possible to prove the factual nature of what is here said; only possibility, probability and the Law of Correspondences can indicate the rightness of these events.

Their effects will be noted, especially after the moment of emergence. These three events can be described as follows: The Spirit of Peace descended upon Christ. The New Testament bears witness to a somewhat similar event when, at the Baptism, we read that "he saw the Spirit of God, descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. This Spirit is a Being of tremendous cosmic potency and is today overshadowing the Christ in much the same manner as Christ two thousand years ago overshadowed or worked through the Master Jesus.

This Spirit of Peace is not the sum total of an emotional and static calm, bringing to an end the turmoil on the Earth and instituting an era of peace. He is, in a mysterious sense, the Spirit of Equilibrium; He works with the Law of Action and Reaction and the inevitability of His activity will be recognised.

His work will demonstrate in two ways—fully when the Christ appears among men and slowly and gradually until that time: The chaos, turmoil, emotional disturbance and mental unbalance found in the world today will be under this Law balanced by a corresponding cycle of calm, emotional quiet and mental poise, thus releasing humanity into a new phase and experience of freedom.

The adjusted peace will be commensurate to the experienced disturbance. The hate which is so dominant in the world today will—through the life of the Spirit of Peace, working through the Christ, the Embodiment of the [75] love of God—be balanced by an expressed goodwill. The guarantee of the appearance of that goodwill is the excessive expression of hate—a hate which has been slowly mounting in the minds of men since the beginning of the 19th century, and which is reaching a new high at this time.

A proportionate measure of the energy of love will demonstrate later as the result of the activity of the Spirit of Peace, working through the Prince of Peace, as Christ has sometimes been called. This spiritual Being will not descend from the high place whereon He works and from whence His energy is directed, but the Christ will act and serve as the channel for His directed potency.

The inflow of His divine energy extra-planetary energy is destined to bring peace eventually upon Earth, through the expression of goodwill.

Great Omission | Dallas Willard

This goodwill will bring about right human relations. Humanity registered unconsciously, of course the first impact of this energy in May, , and again in June, The evolutionary force to which we give the name "the Christ consciousness" a term largely used by the metaphysical groups in the world today focussed itself in the person of the Christ in a manner hitherto unknown. This is the potency, latent in every human heart which was described by St. Paul as "Christ in you, the hope of glory" Col. Of this potency and glory, Christ has ever been the symbol.

By such subtlety and sophistry, marriage was practically forbidden, even as they who subordinated and derogated the holy institution claimed loudly that they were not against it. It was just that they who join physically in matrimony are in the flesh, in which it is impossible please God. Not that they were against marriage, per se. Just that those who enter into conjugal union participate with Satan in the generation of children.

Just that the intimate members by which marriage is consummated owe their function to Lucifer. Just that those who become one flesh after entering into a consecrated virginity were incestuous adulterers and fornicating sodomites. Just that he who engages in sexual union with his wife insults and dishonors her. Just that marital union is not good, unholy, unclean and unnatural. Just that virgins would be greeted by Mary at the heavenly gate, applauded by angels and choired by virgins. For the wages of virginity are everlasting life, and all works without virginity, purity, continence, chastity, are imperfect.

Just that marriage is under the law and virginity is under grace. Just that marriage is the institution of fallen creation. Thus had Ambrose, Jerome, Chrysostom, Siricius, Liberius and many others, by elevating consecrated virginity, created the hierarchy of chastity, and militated with much vitriol and consternation against the uncleanness and unholiness and unnaturalness and perils and troubles and pains and curse and incest and adultery and prostitution and sodomy and fornication and wickedness and error and evil of marriage and the conjugal union.

On the defensive, Jerome attempted to prove the ecclesiastical continuity of his teachings. In his attempt he largely ignored the late 2nd- and early 3rd-century writings of Clement of Alexandria who had rejected emphatically the very position Jerome was now espousing:. They lay it down as a dogma that it was instituted by the devil. They are arrogant and claim to be emulating the Lord who did not marry and had no worldly possessions.

It is their boast to have a profounder understanding of the gospel than anyone else. When there is self-control it leads to prayer; when there is reverent bridal union, to childbearing. At any rate, there is a proper time for the breeding of children, …. You see who is the target of the slanders of those who show their disgust at responsible marriage and attribute the processes of birth to the devil? Setting aside Clement, Jerome insisted that he was saying no more than what Origen and Tertullian had before him. Such a conclusion would have been nonsensical, but it is by just such histrionics that Jerome justified his contrary position.

For it is then when things are difficult that their pardon is easy. Jerome had taken these great blessings of marriage, child rearing and household management positively prescribed by Paul and turned them on their heads. We will leave the Christian this week with the comfort that Ambrose, Jerome, Liberius, Siricius and Chrysostom were dead wrong, and against their ridiculous late 4th century novelties there arose a noble resistance.

Those who stood against the error recognized exactly what was happening. Jerome complained loudly of them and their interference in his attempt to universalize his novelties:. If I remember aright the point of the dispute, the question at issue between myself and Jovinian is that he puts marriage on a level with virginity, while I make it inferior; he declares that there is little or no difference between the two states, I assert that there is a great deal.

Finally— a result due under God to your agency— he has been condemned because he has dared to set matrimony on an equality with perpetual chastity. Either my view of the matter must be embraced, or else that of Jovinian. What Ambrose also knew too well was that his whole house of merit would collapse upon itself if the resistance was allowed to go on:. Who, bound by the marriage-bond, if she hear that there is no honour in chastity, might not be tempted by careless levity of body or mind? We come here to a rare point of agreement with Jerome and Ambrose.

There could be no middle course. The resistance would cause the whole hierarchy of merit to collapse, and such an eventuality would be intolerable. The church hierarchy sided with Jerome, Ambrose and Chrysostom. Their diabolical derogation of marriage and their unbiblical institution of consecrated virginity carried the day. Milan responded by affirming the excommunication Ambrose, Epistle 42 to Pope Siricius.

Jovinian as quoted by Jerome: The Church at Milan to Pope Siricius: Ambrose, regarding Sarmatio and Barbatianus: For if all were virgins, we should have no marriages; the race would perish. These men against whom Siricius, Ambrose, Chrysostom and Jerome had raised their polemical swords were all validly ordained men of good standing. Further, they were successfully carrying the day in their own dioceses, preaching the truth and gaining adherents. These complaints suffice to show that these were neither men of mean intellect nor mere simpletons who were raising objections to the new hierarchy of merit and the attendant derogation of marriage.

They were rather educated, ordained men of perfectly orthodox credentials and well equipped for their ministry of preaching. And they were winning converts. From the times of the apostles, the church had served as a barrier to postpone the rise of Roman Catholicism with all its errors. But Roman Catholicism would inevitably rise, as the Prophets and Apostles had warned, and when it did the Church adopted a stance of protest.

Jovinianus, Vigilantius, Sarmatio and Barbatianus are only a small sampling of them, and their objection to the hierarchy of merit is only one example of the many late 4th century novelties they opposed. There were very many more. Jovinian had a more credible claim to apostolic continuity than his detractors did, removing from Ambrose and Jerome the presumption of apostolic origins for their novelties.

In different ways, both Jerome and Ambrose represented the survival of the ancient encratite tradition at least in its moderate form.

Both strongly associated sex with original sin and linked salvation to sexual purity. We will continue this series in our next installment, and highlight even more of the novelties these early reformers opposed. Aside from writing, Mr. Zins travels extensively, giving seminars in evangelical churches and debating with Romanist apologists.

He and wife Nancy have sons Zechariah and Luke. Larry Wessels, director of Christian Answers of Austin. M, Dallas Theological Seminary. This broadcast features special guest Dale Rudiger a former Roman Catholic for 35 years. Abstaining from meat Indult, Lent, Mardi Gras 3. Celibate Priesthood Pedophile priests, Homosexual priests 4. No Assurance Assurance is Anathema, Trent 3. Purgatory Praying for the dead , All Souls Day 2. Indulgences Mass Cards, Pilgrimages. Pomp Papal Attire, Triregnum 4. Transubstantiation Real presence, monstrance 2. Consecration of the Host Idolatry.

Baptism Infant Baptism, ex opere operato, Donatists, Limbo 2. Marriage Annulment, Remarriage, Rhythm Method. Immaculate Conception Ever Virgin 2. Co-redemptrix Hail Mary, Rosary, Novena 3. Treasury of Merit Supererogation, Prayers for the dead. Jude, Canonization, Beatification 3. Veneration of Saints Dulia, Relics. Canon Law Precepts of the Church 2. Legalism Precepts of the Church, Trent, Supererogation.

Zins and his buddy Larry Wessels make a great pair. Neither of them are particulary gifted apologists. They repeat the same old lies time and time again. I guess hate sells. I was a light shining on their lies and falsehoods about the Catholic Church. Talk about hard hearts! I wondered if you were a paid hawk for the Catholic church trolling all the sites repeating the same foolishness. I am surprised Tim K has not blocked you after repeating the same stuff over and over. It is clear you ability to reason and discern is totally gone which is the 1 main reason to get rid of trolls.

They make it hard for anyone to carry on any meaningful discussion on these blogs. Everyone, please watch this video as it is a discussion between a Roman Catholic Priest and a Reformed Protestant. You can see just what we are facing here on this blog trying to speak to these Roman Catholics. This is a perfect example when you see this discussion. We see the consecrated life in the New Testament. Paul is concerned that the younger widows would bring condemnation upon themselves for their vows of celibacy and dedication to the consecrated life.

The consecrated life is a wonderful thing and, according to Jesus in Matthew 19, celibacy is better state than marriage. Paul made this same argument in 1 Cor. Even married people are called to chastity. Jovininanus, Vigilantius, Sarmatio and Barbatianus are only a small sampling of them, and their objection to the hierarchy of merit is only one example of the many late 4th century novelties they opposed. Now we are getting somewhere on the true link between the faithful Apostolic church and the early visible elect who carried the gospel torch to the world.

I also love the fact that we are now witnessing the Protestants and Protestors of the 3rd and 4th centuries. The original reformers may have started to witness Antichrist arise in the 4th century that generations later the reformers saw come into reality. It is so obvious to anyone with the ability to reason and think soundly that the RCC is Antichrist of Scripture in our generation as the evidence is overwhelming, but for those early reformers and protestants to see it in the 3rd and 4th century will be very interesting indeed. If any of them had ever preached the Pope in the 4th century was that man of sin would be very interesting.

Yeeks, even a Roman Catholic Scholar says:. Finally, a Roman Catholic who can reason after his diligent research is completed and the evidence is clear!!! Eusebius says that Tatian was the author of this heresy. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving. And, of course, who today in the world also forbids to eat meat on Friday and forbid men to marry? The early evidence does not look good for Rome right now. Be prepared for the attacks to grow from the Romish apologists to increase on this site moving forward. Mark Rome and Rocky are just the start once more clear evidence is brought forward. Hang on for a very rough ride.

You can see what the established ECF did to the true elect, and we know what they did to the reformers in the th centuries. I assume much of these heresies can now be found within the RCC church as she integrated them into her fold. Baronius is best known for his Annales Ecclesiastici undertaken at the request of Philip Neri as an answer to the anti-Catholic history, the Magdeburg Centuries. He began writing this account of the Church after almost three decades of lecturing at Santa Maria in Vallicella. In the Annales he treats history in strict chronological order and keeps theology in the background.

Notwithstanding its errors, especially in Greek history in which he had to depend upon secondhand information, the work of Baronius stands as an honest attempt to write history. Sarpi, in urging Casaubon to write a refutation of the Annales, warned him never to accuse or suspect Baronius of bad faith. He also undertook a new edition of the Roman martyrology , in which he removed some entries implausible for historical reasons. Walt, did you know that the Albigensians also forbade marriage? They also denied the Incarnation and thought suicide is the better way.

No man in the Catholic Church is forbidden to marry. No, the marks of the true church are that it is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The more I read your comments Mark, the more it firmly establishes support for my believe that you are totally brain washed. The RCC has really, as you are a great example, taken over the minds of its followers to the point they cannot even think for themselves.

I saw this with my dad and to a lesser extent my mom, but when you are totally brainwashed growing up from childhood, and know nothing else by what you are taught, it is near impossible to unwind that damage. Cults like the RCC have been rooted in a strong delusion according to Scripture, and your postings help all those outside Rome to see what happens when you buy into their theology and doctrines.

456 thoughts on “Come Hell or High Water, part 4”

You become so delusional and incapable to think or reason any more…no matter how much evidence is given to you. Tim just identified the first split between the true and faithful remnant elect and the forthcoming Antichrist of Scripture. That heresy forbidding marriage and eating of meats was adopted to degrees, but as Tim went on to say correctly:. My heart jumped in joy when I saw this statement. I was wondering where the Elect separated from Antichrist in history.

Now we have specific evidence. Yes, I know you cannot see this unfaithful schism caused by Rome and Pope Siricius, etal away from the true Apostolic teaching and Scriptures. There is never a schism caused by the elect and the gospel truth. There is only a schism away from this visible and invisible true church of Jesus Christ. As your Roman Catholic Apologist admits which you cannot admit being brainwashed to a larger degree than many in your church the remnant were more in line with Scripture than Papal Rome and her followers.

That is just enough for me to see he sees it too. They did not get that doctrine from Scripture…. I suggest you reject the doctrine whether it is taught by the Albigensians or by Jerome or by Rome. For some reason stuck in my mind, but I think I made a mistake. So I am still unsure the start of the year period. We have now 3 dates. If we start with AD than it takes us to It is an important episode in the martyrology of the Church of Scotland.

Tim even went so far to detail point by point the topic of marriage was allowed, per se, except in multiple points of further clarification. Obviously, the doctrine of virginity is taught in Scripture for those so gifted, but marriage and the marriage bed is not defiled in any way. Chasity in worship is more critical than anything in Scripture, but so many chase Romish error and foolishness around this time of year with unwarranted and unbiblical holy days and idolatry. Chasity in marriage is also biblical. Unfortunately, you just have to look at the tens of thousands of Priests who are molesting children in our generation to know your preaching chastity and virginity does not hold true in the RCC.

Further, to look at the increasing number of homosexual priests in Rome and worldwide testifies against your claim to promote chastity and virginity. Your snares to these men with vows of celibacy are killing these men. It is pretty straight forward for those who are not suffering from brainwashing on this basic doctrine. Walt, are you saying that Jesus and Paul were more likely to be homosexuals and pedophiles because they were celibate? That seems to be what you are implying. What you care about is attacking Protestants at all cost no matter the evidence as this is standard in Romish apologetical Jesuit teaching.

What we now know today is that Protestant and Reformed Christians are directly linked to the Apostolic church, and Rome broke into Schism forbidding marriage and forbidding meats in the 4th century following exactly the 2nd century encratite heresy. That was destroyed by your own Romish Apologist and by Timothy Kauffman. His big source, David Hunter, never made the leaps that Tim K made. In fact, Tim K. Looks like he won you over! Yes, please cite your source for tens of thousands of priests.

You either need to produce it or repent of bearing false witness. They stated that Pope Francis had not indicated that any cardinal abusers remained in their position. According to the John-Jay-Report, Francis said 8, minimum, but clearly this is shy by about , or more who are closet pedophiles.

Clearly, scripture says this, clearly the CF meant that. Clearly, as is admitted by the Roman Catholic apologist and historian, David G. Hunter, the Apostles never taught anti-marriage doctrines, and Jovininanus, Vigilantius, Sarmatio and Barbatianus were more aligned with the Apostle teaching than Jerome and the Pope. This could be the most significant event in the history of the Christian Church during the Early Church. This true line from the Apostles, to the Protestants in the 4th century, is the most significant event to be discovered. Be joyful dear brothers…we have found the schism.

Walt, apparently I am on moderation again but I did post under the mingled cup hoping we could continue our debate on the real presence. For a moment I was off moderation so I am not sure what I did this time to be put back on moderation. Who in their right mind would send their male children into this situation in the RCC? All denied by you and brushed under the carpet giving these priests full authority to act however they wish because the are Roman catholic and have a free license to do what they do as long as the keep their vow of celibacy and stay away from marriage and woman.

Thanks to Tim research we know know exactly where this wicked doctrine originated in history and how the pope himself broke away from the apostles doctrine on marriage to promote celibacy and the ultimate fruits of homosexual priesthood that is rampant throughout the clergy. Finally the link and evidence has now been disclosed for all to see.

Something like that needs to be said to wake up the sleeping Catholics who send their male children to these catholic schools and universities and parishes. What Tim just uncovered is the smoking gun and we can only wait to see if it ever reaches the light of day. Give it some time for it to sink in Mark. Your foolish apology for homosexual priests are numbered. Take this statistic as hard evidence by your own priest. I know YOU would take it as hard evidence and so would the liberal press but it is hardly that. Did you look to see if there were any methodologically superior studies and possibly even MORE independent and unbiased.

No you would not do that would you Walt. But again these are only estimates as you know. Others have estimated 1 or 2 per cent are homosexuals. No one has ever estimated such a high value as Cozzens. In statistic the outlier is usually turfed. The well known Fr Benedict J. Groeschel reported that seminarians reacted to Cozzens book with fury and scorn. A number of seminarians thought that the book was simply another addition to the liberal agenda under the guise of objectivity. This has been a problem in the Catholic Church for years the liberal agenda but you would not understand this.

Cozzens has also well-documented agenda to move the Catholic Church to married priest along with the acceptance of homosexual priest. Is that liberal enough for you. This all actually helps his cause. The fact remains, Cozzens assessment suffers from a liberal and apparently Freudian bias and, it seems, severely faulty methodological problems that skewed the numbers upward. HOWEVER An interesting study was done in that while not address the number of homosexual priests but rather the actual number reported sexual abuse by them.

An independent study conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, commissioned by the USCCB, from May , found that sexual abuse from priests occurs at a much lower rate than in the rest of society, and that most abuse takes place in families. The rate among priests was determined to be 5 per every , young people, whereas the larger societal rate was , or almost a 27 times greater likelihood. Even if we examine fellow Christians non-Catholics , the known statistics are very sobering and revealing. If we do the math, that adds up to 36, cases in ten years.

One would think that if there were such large numbers of homosexual priests in the U. Go figure that Walt. Let his voice be heard and silent those like mark Rome who are here to defend and support this wicked doctrine Rome has on marriage and the homosexuals who flock to become priests as father cozzens states. All these responses are handled with a welcome sensitivity: A stunning concession—that the pope was further from the center of orthodoxy than the man he accused.

Of course I believe Jovinianus is part of the True Church. I have said as much in these comments. Is it those who oppose Catholic teachings? Arius also did that. They opposed catholic teachings. It was an outgrowth of a movement by lay people who wanted to live radically for God. Prior to the 4th century, martyrdom was the ultimate end for Christians. After the persecutions ended, Christians still wanted to have that radical life and many men and women went to the deserts to live lives of purity, chastity and devotion.

These were the precursors to religious orders we have today. Ambrose and Jerome looked at the ascetic life from different perspectives and how it can be incorporated into the Catholic faith. Celibacy has always been cherished and Jesus even said it is the better way than marriage, but only for those who can accept it. In fact, the priesthood from the very beginning were expected to be celibate even if they were married. Paul himself is an example of celibacy and wished that all would be as he is. The bottom line is that the precursors to religious life, asceticism, is somehow the beginnings of an apostasy is by all counts absurd.

This is why the Judaizers of the second century thought that the Church became apostate then. Look at the Council of Laodicea wrote in But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. Why are the Judaizers wrong and YOU right? Remember that many on this site are considered independent in the reformed protestant circles as their view is that everyone has an equal right to interpret scripture as a minister or church court.

They do not believe any church court such as a presbytery has any authority over a non minister infant who might have just read the bible and has all sort of new innovative interpretations. This is why independents reject regulative principle in favor of the romish normative principle. While reformed do not believe in that any court is infallible, but we do believe the court can be inerrant. Independents reject any authority by courts and assign all authority to the individual interpretation of scripture no matter how much in error it is according to the inerrant interpretation.

Accurate sexual abuse statistics are notoriously difficult to obtain. How can we correct for underreporting? How should allegations that come forward decades after the abuse be handled? The John Jay report found the rate of child abuse among diocesan priests in the U. That would give us approximately , worldwide if the U.

But many regions have lower rates and some have higher. And underreporting is not factored in. So it could be lower than that…or much, much higher. As far as I can tell, Protestants are not appreciably better and may be worse, perhaps even far worse. Celibacy is probably not to blame. The current secularized culture probably has more to do with the problem, and we should be attacking this travesty together…rather than pointing fingers.

All I know is Spurgeon said that when one considers all the crimes and villanies committed under a special priesthood , he would rather a man looked at him in the streets and call him the devil than call him a priest. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. Unless you are setting yourself in opposition to Paul. I oppose mandatory celibacy for the clergy because it goes directly against the dictates of Scripture, not to mention common sense. But if someone remains single by choice and single-mindedly devoted to the Lord in the process , why would you oppose it?

I got married later in life. I might have to take it personally if you take such a position! I said Rome forces men to live in unnatural restraint. Thanks for the personal shot about self control as you drop a judgmental ad hominem on me. It attracts those men to their priesthood. The numbers are staggering. From what I have read and been told it also has cultivated an acceptable environment within the seminaries. In this day and age, science has become heavily politicized, especially when it comes to hot-button issues: Men, by far, are the principal perpetrators, and they most often target boys only because they have much easier access: So yes, pedophiles seek out these professions.

Child abusers are motivated by sex if they are pure pedophiles, but others crave power or get off on the pain and humiliation of others. Evidently, they have found that these latter degenerates are usually heterosexual or bisexual. Homosexual males seldom if ever target children…though they may target boys in their upper teens for sexual reasons ephebophilia. The targeting of early adolescent boys hebephilia, I spelled it wrong before falls more in line with the victimization of children.

Remember, even Evangelical denominations tend to allow men with same-sex orientations to be ordained if they demonstrate faithful vows of chastity. Religious priests, who tend to be even more isolated, have an incidence of pedophilia HALF the rate of diocesan priests. Most likely because they generally have far less access to children. Taking and oath of celibacy is like taking and oath to have a photographic memory. Incidentally, because prisoners are put in unatural restraint, many of these perversions happen.

Yes, I agree Kevin. You are a bumper sticker anti-Catholic. Shall I post here all the articles about the Reformed camp pedophile ministers and cover-ups like I did on the other blog? I mean, we are talking about people lost in a false system with no hope. I hope to hear that from the Lord someday, Kevin you stood against Antichrist and cared enough about the souls of his people. The most unloving thing one can do is let someone perish in a false system.

Well, YOU might not understand their situation, but I kind of do. Miraculously, I became neither a homsexual nor a pedophile. Secularists tell us that we cannot expect our children, during their teenage years or during their undergraduate days, to remain celibate. Is this what you think? By the way, prisoners have an almost zero rate of active pedophilia. I make it a habit never to agree to disagree. Is it a deal? Hans, the difference is scripture says its better to marry than to burn.

Sex before marriage or outside of it is sin. The lifestyle is unnatural if you think about forced celibacy and the confessional. What a time bomb. These priests live lonely lives, and yes I believe it is a breeding ground for sin, and the evidence proves it. Watch this new documentary on the RCC and its constant scandals. I suggest you ignore Hans, Mark and Rocky as these guys are so disconnected from the true meaning of Scripture, and to defend antichrist day after day just proves how lost they are in this world. To defend these crimes and to compare them to the reformers and other faithful protestant ministers is laughable.

Those who are committing these crimes in the Christian church are mostly all involved in Romish practices as ministers whether it be their worship, doctrines, discipline sweeping it under the rug and forcing others into silence by threats, intimidation, lawsuits, etc , and apologetics. This documentary is a little bit long being over 1 hour, and so you can not going to find any Roman Catholic apologists to watch it as it is really incredibly damning against the Pope and the institution. It is filled with source references to thousands of other witness testimony, and only the truly hardened soul run by Satan defends these actions and scrambles to point the finger at others while seeking to silence the victim.

This is an excellent documentary on the incredible wickedness of the RCC and how deep it runs all the way back to the middle ages with documented evidence lodged in the Vatican. This institution, as some even admit in the video, has never gotten so bad and evil at operating like a cesspool of evil. Many of my Catholic friends in Rome left years ago because they witnessed so much of this open filth of priests running the Vatican and could not stand to watch it. The hardened will defend her actions and attack not just the reformers who witnessed the murder and death, and the selling of indulgences, but today the even more wickedness of preying upon innocent children and silencing anyone who even thinks to come forward.

My own Catholic school was filled with priests and nuns who did unimaginable things to the boarder children growing up that only years later all got exposed in public, and everyone was silenced and the priests and nuns were moved. They got millions to tear down the old school, and build a multi-million dollar congregation, church and brought in more children. This is exactly correct. The true church will always be catholic and universal in following the doctrines of Christ, the Scriptures and the Apostles teachings.

Unfortunately, the Elect are not so visible to the blind and hardened. They see only their own religion, no matter how evil or wicked, as the true church because it is visible, vocal and wealthy. None of those criteria have never been shown in Scripture to be marks of a true church. In fact, they are marks of antichrist and the root of evil comes from their institution. The man of sin sits in the church of God proclaiming to be God. There is none other on the earth except the Papacy making these claims in history. Loyalty is to due Pope watch the video above and has nothing to do with Christ….

I could add my own but I thought you had excepted my challenge to discuss the biblical evidence for or against the real presence in the Eucharist and am still waiting on your response to my post. So far I have address John 6: Kevin, maybe you could help Walt. Henry says it is spiritual judgments threatened. Here eating flesh of sons and daughters is a judgment. Take note Timothy P. Now to John 6: If it were a passage about physically eating Him, why say it is the Spirit who gives life? The truth is God calls people to a spiritual relationship with Him by coming and believing.

Walt, just watched that video. Its like the emperor in his new clothes. Just stunning the degree of filth. Maybe Hans, Mark, and Rocky will watch it. I read the link you posted and all the comments. Apparently there is someone in the comments that assures the reader there was a coverup before he became a Pastor. The charges against him are allegations. I have spoken to people who do in fact know the facts about the Chantry coverup. Yes, there was certainly a coverup by ARBCA although most of us had no idea the situation even existed.

Those who served on the investigative committee that looked into the allegations at Miller Valley against Chantry VERY MUCH need to come right out in the public view and tell the world that in fact there was a recommendation for the charges against Chantry to be announced to the entire association. If myself and others are wrong about that, then I ask the members of the investigative committee to say so publicly. But I believe you will find that this recommendation was squashed by some of the very same bullying individuals who are still hold power in the association.

And so what happened? No one came forward.

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