Til the Last Bugle Call: A Novel of U.S. Marines On Guadalcanal

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In the resulting engagement three Kates, three Zeros, and three Marine fighters were shot down and no damage was done to Henderson Field. Two Marine pilots were killed in the engagement as well as eight Japanese aircrewmen. Since she was forced to return to Pearl Harbor for drydock repairs, most of the Saratoga's aircraft and aircrewmen remained behind at Espiritu Santo.

On 2 September, the U. Marine 3rd Defense Battalion began operating an air search radar at Henderson Field, which, along with reports from the coastwatchers , helped provide early warning of incoming Japanese warplanes. From 1 September through 8 September the Japanese aviation units at Rabaul concentrated on providing air cover for Japanese Army forces operating along the Kokoda Track on New Guinea , during the Kokoda Track campaign.

On 9 September, however, the Japanese resumed air operations against Henderson Field, with the objective of destroying the CAF and isolating the American forces on Guadalcanal. Between 21 August and 11 September, the Japanese raided Guadalcanal a total of ten times, losing 31 aircraft destroyed and seven more heavily damaged, primarily due to the defensive efforts of CAF fighter planes.

Most of the Japanese aircrewmen in the destroyed aircraft were killed. During this same time, the CAF Marine Corps fighter squadrons lost 27 aircraft with nine pilots killed. In the resulting battle, two Betty bombers were shot down by Marine anti-aircraft fire, and four Bettys and one fighter were shot down by the Wildcats. Navy pilot died attempting to land his damaged fighter back at Henderson Field following the action. That night the field was shelled by the Japanese cruiser Sendai and three destroyers in support of the Japanese Army attacks on the Lunga perimeter — the first night of the Battle of Edson's Ridge.

The morning of this same day, Tsukahara sent a reconnaissance mission of two Type 2 aircraft escorted by nine Zeros to find out if the Japanese Army had captured Henderson Field during the night. An afternoon raid the same day by 27 Bettys and 12 Zeros attacked Henderson Field at In the skirmish, two Betty bombers were lost and two were heavily damaged, with three crewmen killed and six captured. On 14 September, the R Area force attacked Henderson throughout the day with a total of 24 float fighters and bombers, losing eight of them with no losses to the CAF.

A fighter sweep by seven 2nd Air Group Zeros from Rabaul also attacked Lunga that day, losing one aircraft and pilot. A Japanese reconnaissance aircraft was also shot down over Guadalcanal that day. From 15 to 27 September, bad weather over the Bismarck Islands caused a lull in the air campaign over Guadalcanal, with no Japanese air raids. During this period, both sides reinforced their respective air units. The Japanese delivered 85 fighters and bombers to their air units at Rabaul while the Americans brought in 23 fighters and bombers to Henderson Field.

The CAF reached its peak of combat power on 12 November with 47 fighters, 23 tactical bombers, and 12 medium bombers. After suffering numerous direct hits, and being set ablaze, the Hiei was scuttled by the Japanese. The first aviation unit from another country arrived at Henderson Field on 26 November On 26 December there were aircraft of all types at Guadalcanal. Navy and Marine fighter pilots, who had little high-altitude flying experience to begin with, were at a disadvantage from the start because their F4F Wildcat was not in the same class as the Japanese A6M Zero when it came to service ceiling, rate of climb, and maneuverability.

The American pilots learned quickly not to dogfight with the Zero. Instead, if they became engaged with one, they would give it a quick, diving firing-burst and then dive away to regroup, climb, and attack again. Cactus pilots had to constantly refine their tactics and techniques, rely on teamwork in dogfights and improve their gunnery to remain effective against the Zeroes. Because of the Zero's maneuverability, American pilots quickly adapted hit and run tactics similar to those used by the American Flying Tigers in China and Burma [51] and the tactic of a two-plane mutually protecting flight section.

This technique had previously been developed by the U. The Wildcat had its merits. It was well-protected compared to the lightly armored Zero, had a self-sealing fuel tank , and possessed adequate firepower with six. Marine pilots, skeptical since the Battle of Midway , placed a great deal of confidence in their aircraft at first. Because they could not effectively dogfight the Zeroes, Henderson Field's defenders could not gain air superiority and completely drive off Japanese attacks.

They realized that the best thing they could do was disrupt up each day's raid, whittle down the Japanese, and then break off to fight another day. This tactic also caused the escorting Japanese fighters to climb and burn more of their fuel, thus reducing the already limited time they could spend over Guadalcanal itself. From 3 September to 4 November , the Cactus Air Force claimed downing Japanese planes in aerial combat, and the damage inflicted on others is estimated to be as great.

Cactus Air Force

Because of the limited number of aircraft and fuel available during the early stages of the campaign the CAF was unable to maintain a standing combat air patrol over Henderson Field. Therefore, it was crucial for the CAF to receive early warnings of incoming Japanese aircraft so that its aircraft weren't caught on the ground during Japanese air attacks.

Read in northern and Paul Mason in southern Bougainville , Donald Kennedy on New Georgia , and Geoffrey Kuper on Santa Isabel were able to relay ahead when Japanese airplane formations were heading for the island giving the defenders on Guadalcanal time to get airborne. These coastwatchers, with help from native Solomon Islanders, helped rescue and return several Allied pilots during the campaign. The Cactus Air Force's dive bombers and torpedo planes sank or destroyed 17 large enemy vessels, including one Japanese battleship , one heavy cruiser the Kinugasa , one light cruiser the Yura , three destroyers the Asagiri , Murakumo , and Natsugumo , and twelve transports, possibly sank three destroyers and one heavy cruiser, and heavily damaged 18 other ships, including one heavy cruiser and five light cruisers.

Most notable was the battleship Hiei , which the CAF, along with aircraft from the Enterprise , and Bs from Espiritu Santo, finished off after she had suffered serious damage from American cruisers and destroyers during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. The fifteen Marine combat squadrons that fought on Guadalcanal during this time suffered from 94 pilots killed or missing-in-action, with another evacuated with wounds or with sickness especially severe malaria.

Total figures for Japanese aerial losses during the Guadalcanal campaign have never been calculated. The great lessons learned for Marine Corps aviation units were the debilitating effects of not having air superiority ; the importance of the use of radar; the vulnerability of enemy transport and warship targets; and the vital importance of quickly acquiring expeditionary airfields during amphibious operations. Aboard the USS Enterprise. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Austen Naval Savo Is. Outraged Skies , pp. Retrieved 29 June Marine Corps Aviation , p.

Retrieved 9 July Semper Fi in the Sky. Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific. Army pilots on Guadalcanal. De Chant; John A. Harper and Brothers Publishers. Ferguson, Robert Lawrence The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle. The Battle for Guadalcanal. University of Illinois Press. Garden City, New York: McEniry, John Howard, Jr. University of Alabama Press. Marine Corps Aviation — to the Present.

Nautical and Aviation Publishing Company of America. Morison, Samuel Eliot The Struggle for Guadalcanal, August — February , vol. Little, Brown and Company.

Online views of selections of the book: Retrieved 12 April Guadalcanal to Saipan, August to July ". Office of Air Force History. Retrieved 20 October Guadalcanal air battles and airmen during the campaign. Retrieved 10 July Hollway, Don March Retrieved 16 May Archived from the original on 29 September Retrieved 16 January Army air units involved in Guadalcanal campaign. Marine Pilots in the Solomons, —". History and Museums Division, Headquarters, U. Now repeat after me, the Marine Corps invented close air support, the Marine Corp invented close air support.

Now repeat after me, the Marine Corps wrote the book on insurgency war. The Marine Corps wrote the book on insurgency war. If I wanted to be a soldier I would have joined the Army. The Marines were to be employed ships hence the term Naval Service.

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On the Civil War: If the Marines are abolished half the efficiency of the Navy will be destroyed. They are as necessary to the well being of a ship as the officers. Instead of decreasing the Corps, I would rather hope to see a large increase, for we feel the want of Marines very much.

The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle! The Iwo Jima flag raising was not staged. Joe Rosenthal, who took the picture, repeatedly said it was not, and the reason a second flag was raised is that the first was too small to see from the beach and the commanders wanted the Marines see that Mount Suribachi was secured. You cherry pick your facts IRT Korea. We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of the island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwest corner, doing nothing.

Personally I — and I think the American people — like the way things are. Here is an idea. Yes, that would do nicely….. I wonder if we can both agree we should undo and put the Air Force back under the Army? Now that is an idea! I remember the Marine companies were shooting each other in Grenada. This is why Gen Vessey made that statement. The marines were lost, shot each other, had to be pulled out and sent on their way to the mid-east. The individual marine is tough and brave, no doubt about it. However, their leadership is horrendous. They squander the treasure of young marines; every historical triumph of the corps is a miserable lesson in failed leadership made good by the individual marine.

Well csm Smith, Your memory failed you! And yes the Marines were pulled out after 5 days. Because it was over! If the Army Mech. Why is it that Marine love to spike the ball on the Army everytime they perform a little better on the battle field? Marine, win battles; even if the Army and other branch fight along side take all the credit. Spoken by a true hooah bitch. All I need to say is Jessica lynch and the battle of fallujah. Where was the army then. Actually while the Marines were rescuing Jessica Lynch the Army was miles north fighting their way to Baghdad.

Everybody worked well and the Army 7th Cav was requested by the Marines to join them due to the armor they could support with. And because they were a well recognized unit by the Marine Corp, Actually after the battle they are the only Army unit that can wear a Marine Corp patch on their uniform.

Sergeant Rafael Peralta with 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines, one of the two, was eventually awarded the Navy Cross, the second highest military valor award. In a rare move, Cpl. In fact there were many Army and Marine units involved as well as Navy and Airforce. By saying the Army kicked in the Door is bullshit. They certainly played their part however if the 82nd had patrolled Fallujah as they should have to begin with their would not have been a second taking of the city or possibly a first. Army special forces rescued Jessica Lynch.

The assault on Derna was organized and led by retired Army officer William Eaton who had recruited a force of mercenaries for the assault. He had 8 marines, Lt. Marines did not play a significant role in the capture of Derna. Marines did not capture Chapultepec. The troops who scaled the walls and took the castle were Soldiers, not Marines. The Marines role in the assault on Chapultepec was to hold their position outside the walls and fire on the walls.

In , he was commissioned a Naval Lieutenant. The Marines distinguished themselves, and made history. Scott in his after action report to Sec. It was Almond that flew into RCT 3 on the west side of the Chosin and told that their forces were adequate and sent them North into the meat grinder.

He and only he was in charge of both Marine and Army units. The Marines took their orders as usual from an Army General. Historians have criticized Almond for the wide dispersal of his units during the X Corps invasion of the north-eastern part of North Korea, in November—December This dispersal contributed to the defeat of X Corps by Chinese troops, including the destruction of Task Force Faith, and the narrow escape of the Marines at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir.

Marine participation in the Battle of Princeton was minimal. No marines fought at Trenton. If not for Trenton and Princeton there would have been no Battle of Saratoga. That alliance made possible the victory at Yorktown. He got drunk and an American, Colonel Edward Hand, took charge.

He conducted an effective delaying action. The Marines played a minor role in that battle. It was the only time in the Revolution that Continental Marines engaged British troops in a pitched battle. The Marine Battalion took heavy casualties It was disbanded after Princeton and most of its survivors joined the Continental Army. Meanwhile, after three defeats at the hands of the Continental Army, the British withdrew from all of New Jersey except for a couple of outposts. The Revolution, which was on the brink of ending in December of , continued.

Trenton and Princeton made possible the third critical victory in American Military History, the victory at Saratoga. It was the victory at Saratoga which induced France to enter the war as an Ally of the United States. Neither proved to be an effective officer in American service. Gates got credit for Saratoga, but it was his subordinates, especially Benedict Arnold, who fought the battle. Unfortunately, Benedict Arnold did turn traitor.

The Continental Army did become an effective force because of foreign officers who served, particularly General von Steuben. The French did not accomplish anything decisive in the Revolution until the siege of Yorktown. After the war the Marines were disbanded.

The Army continued in existence. If you had become a Soldier, you would have become a part of the Armed Force which was the first Armed Force to fight in defense of the nation, a part of the Armed Force which won the most crucial battles of US History, Trenton, Princeton, Saratoga, Yorktown. You would have been part of the only Armed Force which has defended the nation continuously for years, you would have been part of the Armed Force which assaulted and captured Chapultepec Castle.

The Marines have their ego because of their size. Were they any larger, their ego would fade. Especially when they would have to shorten their basic training due to costs, like the Army has. In fact, that is just a little too cult-like for rational people. Yes, Harry, if you were a Marine you could be one of those blusterous braggadocio. Until then, keep your fuvking mouth shut,,, pussy. Such professionalism from a Marine.

You should have maned up and joined the Corps. But, you probably thought it was too tuff so you settled. I am a Marine. I love Army guys. I kept 1 or 2 around to shine my boots. I have never hear a Marine say I almost joined the Army. Math and reading that would be tuff for a Jarhead. Yes I said I at first wanted to join the marine crop, but change my mind because the army was fighting most of the battles and wanted to be a part of the fight. Uh, hate to rain on your self congrats but you might want to check yourself.

I went to A University to prepare for another career. While serving as a squad leader in the Army Reserves we had a dozen Marines nearly 10 years younger than myself. They were unable to outperform me and my army buddies in basic physical fitness. All hype and propaganda from the corps, Knock off the bullshit! So you out ran weekend warriors after 5 years of active duty? Wow why an accomplishment, oh wait I smell bullshit. When did the marine reserves start training with army reserves. In Kuwait, Iraq, back home. The physical standards are higher in the corps. The only idiots your convincing are the rest of the soldiers on here.

And even if you did out run them they are civilians that play marine 2 days a month. Marines are no better than any other branch especially the Army. So keep walking around in your little cute uniforms yelling ooorah look at me I want attention. Hey Buddy, you sound like there is a bit of penis envy on your part. Actually a couple days older than the US Army.

I could do this all day on every one of your pointless statements. Its because every kid whomever thinks of being in the Military has been told or learned during their decision that the Army is a more easily acheivable goal and that the Marines are the hardest and toughest and craziest fuckers of the 4 branches of service.

So seriously, Dude, the next time you want to go on a tyraid agianst my Illustrious Marine Corps. Lucky for those greiving families back home, Chesty Puller and the rest of the Devil Dogs finished the job and brought back your wounded and dead back. Might want to check your facts. Quit being so gealous and make some of your own history. PS the Banana wars… yeah we were the stars of that as well. You were right though… you are soilders and we are not. A little checking of the facts is indeed in order here. This is a myth which has nothing to do with reality.

Among the men who helped push for this long delayed recognition were many Marine veterans of Chosin, including retired Marine Col. Chinese papers reviewed in recent years by military scholars have shown that the Army task force fought a significantly larger enemy force than commonly understood. Perhaps we should remember them and what they fought and died for instead of denigrating fellow Americans just because they serve in a different branch.

What would have happened to the Marines had the Chinese taktn Hungnam? X Corps held Hungnam and formed a perimeter around Hungnam to keep the Chinese at bay while 1st Marine Division was embarked. They did not give up Hungnam until 1st Marine Division was safe. Some skirmishes broke out between the defending US 7th, 17th and 65th Infantry and the pursuing PVA 27th Corps, but against the strong naval fire support provided by US Navy Task Force 90, the badly mauled 9th Army was in no shape to approach the Hungnam perimeter.

The last UN unit left at As a foreigner, I find it unseemly and peculiar the manner in which US marines carry themselves. It seems the marines possess a large and pathological inferiority complex. I have no partiality as a foreigner but have done extensive research into the American military and its general history for more than 40 years. I have spent 8 months in Iraq and 7 months in Afghanistan. I witnessed the marine defeat at Fallujah I and fig-leaf withdrawal and replacement by former Sadam forces. Embarrassingly,US marines were the only allied force to have lost a battle in the Iraq conflict.

They repeatedly called on US Army forces to save the day and spearhead attacks.

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Fallujah II is one case in point where the US army was called in to save the day for incompetent and feeble marines. It shows the Army as victors in Fallujah II as the marines followed after the victory was already won. Also for the record, rants and personal attacks on Mr. Piraino are unethical and unfounded. I personally have checked his research and found it without error. Sadly, the facts he has compiled are embarrassing to the US marines but this does not make them untrue.

Unfortunately, those rabid marines who attacked have little or no facts to back up there baseless assertions. Marines should be humble and professional and not falsely arrogant as many marines have shown themselves on this site. Shame on the US marines. Thanks to the US army for helping to keep the peace around the world. My research has shown the US Army to be the best ground force in the history of the world bar none.

Indeed, It is sad to see US marines die in disproportionate numbers due to their own incompetence and arrogance. It was the marines the took over fallujah ass. The army had it then lost it. The the marines went in and killed over insurgents. Get your facts straight. It was the marines that took over fallujah ass. Then the marines went in and killed over insurgents. The Army lead the Marines in retaking Falujah with two mechanized battalions.

I have the Marine written history and Army posted later in the thread. They staunchly refuse to deploy, even under emergency conditions, without overwhelming air and gun support. It has also been documented that the marine corps institutionally doctors its official journals and records. As an emergency expeditionary force, examples of marine corps ability and capability should be abundent, but none exhists.

Given their mission, and lack of evidence to the contrary, the marine corps must always always be considered second-rate to the the Ranger battalions, and given its own documented achievements, the 82nd Airborne Division. Before the Continental Marine Corps came into existence, troops who would form the Continental Army had fought the Battles of Lexington and Concord, had established the siege of Boston, captured Fort Ticonderoga, transported heavy artillery from Ticonderoga to Boston, and invaded Canada.

The Continental Army, with no help from the Marines or any foreign power, won the first victory of the Revolution, the capture of Bodton. Like many Marines, you disrespect the Army while trying to take credit for Army accomplishments, You do this by lying about history,. Smith sacrificed the 31st RCT to save the Marines. The Army has made its own history, a lot of which the Marine Corps has tried to claim as its own:. Single handedly winning the Battle for Guadalcanal more soldiers than marines fought on Gualdalcanal.

Single handedly saving Korea Soldiers went into Korea before the Marines, fought well enough to establish the Pusan Perimeter and bought time for the Marines to be able to deploy their own ground troops. The th Infantry, with no assistance from the Marines, defeated the final Japanese attack on Saipan, the Gyokusai on July 7, They were rescued by another Army Regiment, the th infantry.

More soldiers than Marines Occupied Guadacanal. Not to say that they were not a major force, however they arrived on the canal 2 months after the Marines had been fighting and had taken the airfield and renamed it Henderson Field. No way and this is a bunch of Army BS. Fact the Corps serves a greater roll in our Countries military history. Fact the Corps is fewer in number and cheaper to train and harder then any other branch of military service in the world.

All of the facts so called facts are debunked Yes by men and women who served proudly in our Corps. We are brought up not to lie cheat steal as this would sully our outstanding rep. Most soldiers in the Army are good men and women no doubt but check the history The highest ranking General officers in the Army have awarded the Corps many times over Gen. Douglas dug out Doug. Chosen please it was the Marines under an awesome Warrior most decorated combat officer in history. Devil Dog is a fact because they heard the battle cry and it scared them true.

I can go on and on please you guys have tanks out the ass and we are supposed to keep up. Clears the way pussy. You look down on the Army. The Army was in D-Day, biggest amphibious invasion in the last century, if not history. Army fought the SS. As for Chosin an understrength ad hoc Army regiment held the Marines eastern flank against a proportionally greater enemy two Chinese divisions than the Marines faced for three days and was decimated.

In return they saved the Marine supply dump and assembly area which allowed the breakout. The commander was awarded the Medal of Honor. Just about every company commander and higher commander was killed. Col Faith was not the commander until after Col. MacLean had been shot and captured by Chinese forces. While it uses recently released Chinese documents, the translation of them is a bit..

MacLean who did not prepare for any sort of attack even though he was warned of extensive enemy activity in the area by the 5th Marine unit he replaced — and after losing his own recon platoon after sending them out to scout the route of advance for the planned attack the next morning. They were deployed poorly with little to no thought for lines of communication or how the surrounding mountains would prevent their radios from keeping contact with each other. Col Faith and Major Storms did a valiant job in keeping the 31st together, but from speaking to soldiers who were there, the rest of the officer corps with the 31st left a lot to be desired.

Hell, MajGen Almond still had them with orders to advance and attack on the third day when they were effectively incapacitated as a fighting force. Between his calls for airstrikes and to get resupplied, it could be said the 31st would not have been able to stand as long as they did without that support. Mike, How is Appleman biased towards the Army? It was an Army fight. What Chinese translations exactly are skewed?

Yes MacLean was the commander of the 31st RCT for less than 36 hours of the action until he was shot four times, captured and subsequently died. LTC Faith took command of the task force from the morning of the 29 Nov until the early morning of 1 Dec. He commanded during the most desperate fighting. MacClean did not prepare for an attack? He occupied the Marine positions. Were they poorly situated?

Securing his lines of communication? The Marines captured enemy deserters who warned of enemy strength the day before the attack and sent the intel to corps but did not notify the 31st RCT. The unit received a Presidential Unit Citation. As for Marine Air, Appleman cites it repeatedly. How much more credit do you want in a battle that had soldiers and three Marines on the ground?

They left their positions before the 31st arrived and did not hand off sector sketches, fire plans or any of the other customary coordination when a unit is relieved.

The Marines never attempted to establish contact with the 31st RCT which is doctrinal higher to lower. They were in a fight for their lives but maybe they should be the last to throw stones. Agree that many have inappropriately made much of Chosin. Puller abandoned the Army dead only because they were Army dead. So…Fuck You Cpl of Marines or whatever gay name you gave yourself.

Who told you that?

Let me tell you something, I was there. What infamously became known as Task Force Faith, and was officially titled Regimental Combat Team 31, was in fact only two battalions, the 1st Battalion, 32nd Infantry, and the 3rd Battalion, 31st Infantry, supported by the 57th Field Artillery Battalion. On the night of November 27 we were hit by three regiments of the 80th Chinese Division.

The 1st Battalion, 32nd Infantry initially took very heavy casualties to the north on the hills north of Sinhung-Ni, while 3rd Battalion, 31st Infantry and the artillery battalion were nearly overrun to the west near the Sinhung-Ni inlet. With overwhelming numbers, the Chinese effectively carved RCT 31 into three seperated elements. At dawn, the remnants of 3rd Battalion, 31st Infantry counterattacked toward the inlet to allow 1st Battalion, 32nd Infantry a way back from the north.

Subsequent information released by Chinese sources confirmed the Chinese th and th Regiments fielded about effectives after the initial fight. But the Chinese had moved a second divison, the 81st, and its nd Regiment took Hill , effectively sealing RCT 31 in along the far shore of the Chosin.

General Smith offered a half-assed attempt to save the Army unit by releasing only the 31st Tank Company. The survivors were formed into a provisional battalion, and did continue the fight. What did they do? Oh yeah, they just advanced in a different direction. Keep telling yourself that. So, cpl of marines, your disparaging of brave American war dead and wounded is obsene.

I have never met a combat veteran who has ever insulted combat casualties the way you have. Honestly, the only people I have ever heard talk like you talk, are rear area types who never carried a rifle into battle and watched friends die. In case your French is fuzzy, garrett is French for barracks. And as OUR song says:. Said he captured a lot of loot. Know what I saw when I looked down?

A spit shine boot! An ass-wipe phony, disparaging incredibly brave American servicemen heroically killed and wounded in battle. So, as I said before, Fuck You! Tell it like it is, the Marine Corps is the king of corrupt mainstream media and for that they are not worthy. Hey CPL of Marines: You talk too much. But I like that nickname you all gave yourselves. Devil dogs are a dessert, soft and mushy. The assault through and capture of the Wood was conducting almost exclusively by the 5th and 6th Marine regiments. The exception would that of the period between June 15th and June 22th where the battalions in the wood pulled back to get food and much needed rest after pushing three quarters of the way into the wood.

On June 25th the Marines pushed the rest of the way though the wood and rendering 5 German regiments combat ineffective. I would also like to point that the Army participated, did not make, participated in the largest beach landing in the history of Military warfare, it was a multi national force, you can apologize to the British, French and Canadians now. And since we are on the subject of particioation, Marines also took part in that one, just not on that grand of a scale.

Mogadishu first, problems arose in Mogadishu after the Marines, who ran regular patrols through the city in armored column and on foot, pulled out the soldiers replacing them did not and we saw how that ended up. Secondly I was in the First Marine Division in as part of Regimental Combat Team Five, twice our advance was halted for days because we had to wait for the Armies supply trains to catch up because they did distribute their supplies accordingly. Fallujah has been taken care of.

I can only imagine that you are refering to the first attempt to passify the city which the size of the insurgency inside was greatly under-estimated. Possibly because the 82nd refusal to set up firm bases inside the city and conduct patrols accordingly. The second assault was completly successful containing the threat and ultimatly minimalizing it to where now the city is under teh control of the local Iraqi governemnt and police force. The Marines out of Camp Fallujah only take a supporting role when called upon and pass through on their daily missions.

The city is no longer the threat it once was. Which is one hell of a lot better then it was when they took over for the 82nd who were from what I understand would not go into the city. Also if you were to fold the Marines into the Army you would just have a bigger Army and be paying the same amount of money, way to think that one through though.

Yes, i looked up into that as well and found that you are very right indeed. My father was in the Marines and retired as a Lt. My Brothers are in the Army though and they really do just what you say. In this forum, the first reply was a list of favorable comments about the Marine Corps. No other American Armed Service goes to the extent the Marine Corps does to compile lists of compliments about itself. That is why I particularly enjoy pointing out instances in which the Marines have falsified history to falsely claim Army valor. Both branches have different accomplishments and roles to play.

I am a seven year veteran of the Army. I have loads of respect for the marines that I have served with, many of whom are good friends of mine. Outside of the normal shit talking, we are all professional enough to respect each other. The corps has a higher esprit de corps than the army as a whole, but combat units in the army are just as closely knit. My marine buddies, most of whom are series, are the first to say that the only ones who mindlessly talk down every other branch of service are the fobbits and kids just out of boot. Oh yes, and the force that conquered the western portion of the country was primarily army and not marines.

Immediately after the war, it was adopted by, and became a staple of, The Ranger School. I suspect the Marines adopted the practice from experience of attending The Ranger School. I have absolutely no idea what that means. But here is what I do know…. Here is what else I know…. The 1st and 29th Infantry Division assaulted the Omaha Beach through a bowl-shaped ring of dominating cliffs covered with the most sophisticated defensive fortifications from a mile out to sea to the tops of those cliffs, and beyond.

It was, the most heavily fortified and prepared beach defense assaulted in history. The Germans never called the Marines Devils, or Dogs, or anything else of that nature. But, here is what else I know…. A multitude of military organizations have given themselves fearsome knicknames like the Marines have. And most all of them refer to themselves as devils of some type or another. But only one United States military formation in histroy has actually documented the enemy attributing a knickname to them.

It contained the following passage: We never feel safe. It seems that there are blackhearted devils all aroung us. Hey former cpl, the marine corps considers you officer material?

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Your a freaking illiterate. I guess that explains why they can never qualify for higher unified command. Spelling, grammar, and forming complete sentences are essential skills at thst level. I am a military historian by profession and there is no doubt that for years the Marine Corps has done the best job of any of the Services in using our public relations folks to magnify our role in the eye of the American Public.

I was assigned at Quantico when the Army rolled into Baghdad while the Marines were bogged down, and the generals were screaming in frustration and anger until Colonel was relieved. Like it or not, everything in this article is right on the money; if you doubt that, check with the Marine Corps History Division. Take it up the ass just like every other one here.

Instead of bitching and sitting, go confirm it. Most of Marine Corps. They are, in essence, propagating propaganda under the guise of official history.

In that, the Marine Corps is building a heritage house of cards that will inevitably crumble to truthful fact. And when that fall arrives, it will be fast and far. I believe we are now seeing the beginnings of that implosion. And in my opion, it is directly due to the Marine Corps overplaying its hand. It is also unimaginable. The Marine Corps has a fine record. Certainly they are not nearly what they portray themselves to be, but they possess a fine record.

They have no need to embelish, and hide negatives. And that will be a national tragedy. When the Marine Corps does suffer its inevitable demise, blame should be squarely placed upon the pathalogical officer corps that has controlled the Marine Corps since World War II, and directly set the tone and direction. LOL, hey semper fi mac, how do you like those responses by your fellow marines?

However as much as I hate a controlled media I think that this doctored heritage serves a purpose to instill utmost pride, belonging, and discipline in every Marine. I am not here to bash on the soldiers. I have many friends in the United States Army. Many of them disciplined and fine citizens that I would be proud to fight with any day.

There loyalty to their country and courage is not what I question. The army is not what it used to be. The army for some reason has come up with the idea to replace good training with high tech equipment. I would like to point out that before someone goes off spouting about Delta Force they need to remember that there are Marines in Delta. It is a multi-service SF. By the way…there are only a few former Marines there. However, they did get a few things right. Some news stories accurately described portions of the US Marine Corps defeat in the two battles of Fallujah.

Fallujah Battles, Iraq is an e-book that honestly describes the corrosive influence in embedded US journalists. Although Marine Corps NCOs and enlisted men are excellent military material, in most cases they are poorly trained and incompetently led. In fact, the only bright spots of the battles of Fallujah were those brought about by Marine Corps NCOs who performed their tactical maneuvers in an excellent manner.

Fallujah Battles, Iraq describes what really happened in Fallujah. The strange psychology of some US Marine Corps leaders is contrasted with the warrior heroism exemplified by others. There is no doubt that, properly supported by tanks and self-propelled artillery, three regiments of marine infantry could have conquered Fallujah with minimal casualties.

However, the Marine generals have continued the tradition of not understanding how to use tanks, which has prevailed since World War II. A hard corps of strong Marine Corps NCOs cannot compensate for a lack of division, regimental, battalion, and company leadership. He said he had received no request from the Iraqi government to carry out military operations in Fallujah, and offered no opinion on whether a peaceful solution was possible. Not a problem whatsoever.

In addition, the unique psychological and organizational characteristics of the US Marine Corps, a light maneuver force with few tanks, are closely dissected. Although Marine Corps NCOs and enlisted marine infantry are excellent military material, in most cases they are poorly trained and incompetently led. The only bright spots of the battles of Fallujah were those brought about by those few Marine Corps NCOs, warrior leaders, who performed tactical assault maneuvers in an excellent manner. The strange psychology of some US Marine Corps leaders is contrasted with the warrior leadership exemplified by others.

Fallujah Battles, Iraq discusses the fact that among the Marine generals there is an antiwar peacenik cult that impedes warfighting and abhors maneuver. Among marine officers there are too many men wedded to technology instead of the bitch goddess of war. A hard corps of strong US Marine Corps NCOs cannot compensate for a lack of competent Marine generals or a lack of regimental, battalion, and company leadership. The marines, for instance, initially used only 16 tanks in Iraq out of their inventory of They have also deployed 39 of their 1, assault amphibian vehicles AAVs.

The AAVs provide protection against light small arms but not rocket-propelled grenades. After many American vehicles were knocked out. The Army and marine generals began assessing whether or not to rush hundreds more tanks to Iraq, a process that would take weeks. Why has there not been a public outcry about the incompetence of American generals? Plywood provides no protection, even against small arms. There is no doubt that a number of brave marine infantry men were killed and wounded in the battles of Fallujah in a wasteful fashion.

Properly led, by well-trained marine officers, few marines would have died. A positive victory would have added to the glory of the US Marine Corps. This e-book is offered with the hope that those proud and few US Marine Corps warrior leaders, who are strong and brave Marine officers and Marine Corps NCOs, will read this book and never lose another city fight again.

Let me first say that I admire the Marine Corp and agree with many of their fundamental principals. Army can learn from it. First, I could not agree more that basic training should be twelve weeks, not eight. For me, it ended just as it was just beginning to get interesting. Aside from that, each service has a different purpose; the role of the Marine Corp is very different from the role of the army.

And I think the author of the article is wrong to advocate changing that role or ending the Marine Corp. However, what bothers me about the general responses to the article is that no one has really replied to what I see as its underlying complaint: The Marine Corp has gained a lot of its reputation by maligning the army. You do not need to denigrate the achievements of soldiers to bolster your own sense of accomplishments. We know you kick ass. But so does the army. The army did not need the Marines to breech the German defenses in Europe and North Africa, and it did so with a large number of conscripts.

The German Army was second to none until they ran up against Patton. And yes, there were allies who helped, but they usually got in the way. Let me get this right, were one of you saying that the Somalia was a defeat for the Rangers? And if what the article says about Korea is true, then the Marines should acknowledge it. It is disgraceful to the memory of those brave soldiers who died buying time for a Marine retreat.

Oh yes, if the soldiers in the 82nd did not go out on patrols in Iraq, as one of you stated, it was only because they were ordered so. Just like Marines, soldiers follow orders whether they like them or not. I never questioned the tactics and strategies of officers who had a broader view of the problem than I. Still there is a lot to learn from the army can learn from the Marines, like increasing basic training to twelve weeks. The army should put an end to political correctness and return to its traditions.

Oh yes, the other thing the army can learn from the Marine Corp is PR. Yup, you Marines really have mastered it. The Marine Corps has acquired its reputation not only for claiming Army exploits as their own. The problem on Saipan was not the 27th Id but Holland M. Smith who was a general inexperienced in high command, but a general who totally underestimated Japanese strength on Saipan.

On Saipan, he expected understrength Army units to take out difficult objectives. He simply did not realize how difficult the objectives were. When the 27th ID did not rapidly overrun those objectives, he accused them of failure. The Japanese occupied strong defensive positions impregnable to frontal attack. Rupertus got thousands of his Marines killed and wounded trying to take out those positions via the tactic of direct frontal attack.

They claimed 1st mardiv had to fight such a bloody battle because General MacArthur wanted Peleliu. Macarthur may have wanted Peleliu. But Peleliu was such a bloody battle because of poor generalship on the part of William Rupertus. Jerry from SD wow you know your stuff, lol motto xD the 82nd airborne was ordered to go into that city, they refused to! It is with great sadness that I read Soldiers and Marines trying to belittle each other rather than unite under one flag for one common goal.

I have met many marines and some have this nasty attitude toward the army not that our Soldiers dont add fuel to the fire. We have a great honor to have the Army and the Marine Corp fighting our wars, Myself included as I am a veteran. Lets focus on bringing the boys back and not on who failed in fallujah or who failed in Korea. I am Raj Roy, son of an officer in Indian Army..

Being so far away, i truly admired you guys both Marines and Navy.. BUT, the respect seems to be a little lost now.. You guys are fighting against each other? Its like two sons of a same mother trying to prove to mother who is better rather than serving her! I think it is more of the Marine Corps, the history of which is not as extensive as that of the US Army, trying to build a reputation which is not there.

Much of Marine Corps history is fabricated and consists of claiming credit for what they did not do and blaming the Army for their blunders. What would posess a person to write such an article? Scott Piraino, shame on you. Brave men and women from both the Army and Marine Corps have died to protect your right to the freedom of speech and this is how you honor them? Pick up that pen and write a story of the great sacrifices these very same individuals have made to make this country so great. To my fellow Marines and Army brothers and sisters; instead of responding to this article, take the time to share something about a fellow patriot who you had the honor of serving with.

God bless every US service member and their families for their service and sacrifice. Peace be with you. In spite of horrible casualties to ots 1st and 2nd Battalions, th Infantry stopped the attack. Another Army regiment, th Infantry then drove the Japanese back. One Marine artillery battalion, 3rd battalion 10th marines, was the only Marine unit to engage the Japanese. He called the Soldiers of the th Infantry, who actually fought and bled and died stopping the attack yellow cowards.

Good point Texas Marine. Nearly all of whom died valiantly on the battlefield, only to be disparaged and disrespected as cowards by virtually the entire Marine Corps. That would be a good start. Especially since ChiCom records now being released expose the Marine Corps as the treasonous institution it is, and marines generally as the traitorous individuals they have been. I strongly suspect many more Marine Corps misinformation campaigns will be exposed. That is really the only word that can describe it. I was trying to figure out which branch of service to go into and I am sure of my choice now.

After reading these complete lies about our Marine Corps it is pretty obvious that some pathetic human being has too much time on his hands. My grandfather drove tanks in the Army in WWII, but we all know who is the better fighting force of the 21st century. Basic is the Marines and these are not all lies its someone who decided to defend the army and shed light on the Army. Marines are a great branch and if you join you will learn that very quickly that when your fighting with the Army this rivalry is a dumb joke.

You do realize that Marines were not a land force during the Revolution? They were almost exclusively deployed on Navy ships to fight in the mast tops and occasionally sortie ashore? So at Trenton, Saratoga, Valley Forge and Yorktown they were on board ship where they were assigned to be.. Even still, small detachments of Marines did serve with the Continental Army. At Trenton, they were stuck when the part of the attack they were assigned to could not cross the Delaware due to the ice. Tougher 13 week boot camp?? Man, you sound like you love to feast on sugarcoated shit.

He said honestly that swim week is a joke. Boot camp has gotten easier over the decades. Jump in with clothes on and blow air in your shirt. Both Marines and Army have their even share of things. This whole thread is absolutely hilarious. I retired from the Corps ten years ago and me and a bunch of my former service buddies from all branches crack up reading this kind of stuff. We all respect each other and harass each other to no end. Bottom line is that I agree with the comments regarding different roles. Further I agree that depending on viewpoint of the individual authors, various media types, leaders, historians, and others spew out skewed opinion.

I am not advocating a group hug here, but you guys need to grow up and find something better to do with your time. All the services are necessary. Competition is good for improvement. Remember who the real enemy is and focus there. Greatest respect for both branches though Granddad served in France with Pershing and son is in Army. He stuck his neck out in WW2, Korea and Vietnam!!! Mostly good-natured macho ribbing…keep it that way Army and Marines. I have to laugh. When the shit hits the fan Army and Marines will fight and die alongside each other.

Guadacanal was hell for both. The wise veterans learn from the best of the other agencies AND there is always someone doing it better somewhere else! Competition is good for the nation BUT waste is not. We got plenty of enemies without picking fights with each other or wasting resources. Just keep it respectful. You guys sound like a bunch of school kids. This is such a silly argument. Very similar to guys stuck talking about their college football teams and frat houses. Both sides living in the rear view mirror. I loved the history, structure, dicipline, training and uniform.

I loved learning and training with the Marines and fellow Cadets in Camp Penalton, I loved looking my sharpest during inspections, and I loved earning every Cadet promotion until I reached to the top as one of the top class Cadets. I always wanted to be in he military ever since I was a kid. I even had drill instructors training and yelling in my face at the age of It made me into a finer teenager after I graduated the programs class. Community service was important to me, along with being a good person and patriot.

Its all I ever spoke and thought of. Not because of the glory. Because of the honor. Thats what its about. Honor, making a difference, and serving my country. I wanted to serve my country in a modest manner in a modest branch. They bash on the other branches. I used to love the Marines. They were my role models. I almost joined them. But now I just respect them as fellow brothers in arms. I wont lie, I highly respect their warrior skills their infantry has over the Armys infantry. Thats what the Marines should be proud of.

They have the best warriors. Thats what they are known for and thats what they were created for. Every Marine is a rifleman. No matter what occupation. Every recruit is treated the same in Bootcamp. I wish the Army did that, but we dont. In the Army, Bootcamp varies on what occupation you pick. For example, Im in a combat occupation so Bootcamp was harder.

Whereas my fellow soldier, and friend, is a non combat soldier. So compaired to my training, his bootcamp was a little bit more mild. Do I put him down? Without him, infantry couldnt get supplies. Which brings me to my point. You have just as much to be proud of as any soldier, airman, sailer and Coastguard member. No better, No worse. Soldiers are warriors as well. We have our pride. In fact, the Army has a hellava alot to be proud of. If it wasnt for the Army National Guard in fact , the Marines and Navy wouldnt be established, and most of all, we wouldnt be living on this land.

When we settled here, we created an organized Militia to protect us against the Brits. And the Army guard still serves a large role in America to this day. Not to mention half of the Army Guard consists of formal Marines. I think this artical is pro Army, and although I think its good that theres finally someone defending us and our history for once, it should not put Marine Corps history down. They worked equally as hard as the Army did in US history.

They have an honorable history. So dont put down Marine Corps history. They are contributers to fighting the United States freedom Even though many of them still think theyre better than us just because of a nicer uniform and sharper immage. We have great size, great training, and the best equipment.

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