Whats wrong with the church in America: Is the church being effective today?

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In Forbes Magazine, he stated: The social universe has no "natural laws" as the physical sciences do. It is thus subject to continuous change. This means that assumptions that were valid yesterday can become invalid and, indeed, totally misleading in no time at all. Thus, he does not believe that there are any moral absolutes, and he states that anybody who believes that there are moral absolutes may be misled. The science of discovering those strengths, of fitting them into a productive framework, is what Drucker calls management.

Just think of the enormous problems facing the world—poverty, health care, education, international tension—and the need for managed solutions becomes loud and clear. When the Word of God is dialogued as opposed to being taught didactically between believers and unbelievers, with multiple Bible versions utilized with King James usage discouraged and consensus is reached — agreement that all are comfortable with — then the message of the Word of God has been watered down ever so slightly, and the participants have been conditioned to accept and even celebrate their compromise synthesis.

The new synthesis becomes the starting point thesis for the next meeting, and the process of continual change innovation continues. The fear of alienation from the group is the pressure that prevents an individual from standing firm for the truth of the Word of God, and such a one usually remains silent self-editing.

The fear of man rejection overrides the fear of God. Traditionally thinking Christians, when proven wrong with factual information i. They are brought back to accountability to higher authority the Word of God. On the other hand, transformational thinkers, having transitioned through this dialectic process, when proven wrong with factual information, have been conditioned to process that information differently - they automatically question the facts what is and dialogue them within themselves; their deceitful hearts rebel against the facts; and then they begin to justify to themselves and others why it is that they no longer have to attend to the facts, or yield to higher authority.

They process the facts away, and their consciences become seared. This is the natural result of the dialectic process — the searing of the conscience [1 Tim 4: Transformational thinkers are then able to justify to themselves why they are no longer bound to Biblical moral absolutes. You see, people are saying that the Biblical message just doesn't apply to today's humanistic culture — that it must be interpreted in light of the culture of the day.

This is the process that all sinners use in attempting to justify their rebellion to themselves and others. Where this Movement is Headed. Partnerships, alliances and collaboration will become the norm, rather than the exception, and the relationships will be built on new loyalties and a new common mission. Compass continues on to say: Regarding the church, Peter Drucker stated: There is no other institution on the American community that could be the center.

So, what is the point of all this? These are the major goals of the United Nations, with all power to enforce them given to the U. So, how does the church fit in? Some of these programs are already being administered through fire stations vaccinations , senior citizen centers, and parks free cheese giveaways, etc. Is the church really participating in this? Willow Creek Community Church in So. Department of Public Information — they have agreed to actively promote the U.

Yes, the church is participating in the neo-pagan, earth-worshiping, sustainable development touted by the United Nations, and both major American political parties. Additionally, the rules that the church must adhere to in administering governmental programs were recently laid out by President Clinton. There are approximately , schools entering into these partnerships with religious groups. Firstly, churches are actually carrying out and administering the U.

This is the goal of the Humanists, Peter Drucker, and the U. The only people hindering this utopian goal are those who refuse to lay aside their moral absolutes for the sake of the world. Either by force, or by the LORD. Willow Creek Seeker Services by G. The Business of the Kingdom , Christianity Today. Linden, New Jersey, p. Buford, dedication of Halftime. Daily Bulletin, November 4, Video - I smile widely in disbelief also knowing that the included gospels of the old and new testament were hand picked and groomed to the tastes of King James by the autocratic servants of the monarchy.

Such ignorance to think that it is by any means the complete and only truth. What a total lack of understanding of the origins of the words you and I both hold so dearly. An angle presenting a different gospel from plates by mr smith with no archeological evidence found in the us saving a different gospel does no make it. You know little of what you are commenting about. The evidence is strewn about the Guatemalan and Yucatan peninsulas. One only needs to look. The plates were commanded to be carried for many months and buried where they were in upper state NY. It says this in the book itself, which is a compilation of many authors testimony of what happened.

It is becoming more and more clear that these were the pre-mayan peoples. The main reason I am disillusioned with the church is because of the corruption. I could go on and on. The reason to be disillusioned is their own apologies. That was written before Mormon plates and it is different gospel altogether based on a false christ whom Mormons say is created and not the Real Christ who cheated the universe man who left his Heaven to become man and died for our sin. To trust in a different christ one that was created , is no christ at all. And in the end, whoever trusts in the christ instead of the Living Chirst will still be in their sins.

Which is why the correct Christ Deity not the plate man made one christ who as created Is pivotal to where you will spend eternity in heaven with God forever forgiven by Christ Deity who paid the price for our sins or hell paying you your sins yourself, without God, forever.

Because the created mormon christ can not forgive sin. The mormon may spell the same but eternally different. Still sounds like you are taking it wrong. You still seem to know little of what you are talking about because what you are spewing is really confusing. You must have gotten this stuff from some hateful evangelists. What are you talking about? The teachings of Christ in the book of mormon are almost a perfect mirror of those in the new testament.

Who told you these lies? If you would like to ask some basic questions about our beliefs, then I will answer them for you. Not confusing at all I know a lot of Mormon there lives look better cleaner than mine they are knowledgable and a lot of good works. The thing is that has nothing to do with sin how good you are. His birth He was born of a woman and by Gods Spirit. Works will never save anyone because works can not erase sin.

And I do not disagree with your words or quotation so please tell me exactly what it is you think you are saying about mormons? Of course everyone sins. Who told you we believe otherwise? Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the Father but by me. If any man is in Christ he is a New creation Titus 3: God gives us the desire to do good works to please Him and gratitude for what he has done for us. We will want to do good works God puts His Holy Spirit into our heart to know him.

I pray that He will you insight into this. Salvation is found in no one else their is no other name by which we must be saved. This site explains it better. That branch of my family believes they are the only Church because Joseph Smith is the only one who got the right temple plans, the right doctrines and covenants and the best testimony ever from the angel, and confirmed it all with the burning in his bosom that it was the right way.

Because all the denominations around were false and displeased God so much he appeared to JS. So if it is indeed the only church, why frequent a site not even talking about the LDS church. Seems strange, the missionaries that have come to my door tell me your Church is growing leaps and bounds, so why are you coming to a website for Church plants, that are not being done by your church. The BOM is not based on Biblical christianity, because remember JS was given the right gospel and doctrine because the current ones were lacking, right.

And he had more revelation for going back to taking more than one wife, because that was what was done in ancient days, right? Even though the actual temple ceremony has NO origin in Hebrew culture but in the occult practices of ancient times, that were heathen and paganistic. Messiah never had a brother, in Satan. The fact is Joseph Smith had a whole different occupation, something quite contrary to ALL scripture. He created a new religion based on some obscure notions, and tried to pawn it off as the new deal. He got quite the following and it is still going.

LDS build churches and perpetuate a very large real estate venture adhering to good moral principles. Jesus Christ, Messiah, came to build a Kingdom not of this world, not associated with Kolob, but to have a Bride saved by grace, by HIS shed blood, period. Not rituals, not works, not anything that man can do gets them to the spiritual Kingdom.

The Body of Christ is the Bride, the only heavenly marriage happening there. No extra planets, no need for anymore priests as He alone is our high priest.

No need to create more spiritual progeny. Do you feel like you grow more spiritually by helping a stranded motorist or by looking at wrong images on the internet? I would adamantly say the former. By practicing righteousness we strengthen those spiritual muscles. If we fail to take action, the next time it will be easier to do the same. Faith is all that is needed for salvation. Jesus died not just for original sin, but for ALL of our sin. We can only accept his offer of salvation. All of our works are but as dirty rags so that no man may boast that his salvation comes in any way from his own effort.

If it were, how then did the thief on the cross go to Heaven? Either Jesus was wrong not possible or the belief that baptism would be required for the thief or anyone to go to Heaven is wrong. But back to your point, Jesus said you will know a tree by the fruit it bears.

A dead tree bears no fruit. A dead faith bears no fruit. But the act of bearing fruit doing works is not what makes the kind of tree works is not what makes a Christian , it is how they are identified. In addition to this, many people also make the mistake of thinking that all works have to be outward. This very egregiously overlooks the most important works, those of growth and change in the believer. Many of these works will not be observable at a casual glance, but only through detailed retrospection and an examination of your past vs your present self. Faith and works go hand-in-hand as one responds in trust and obedience to God.

It is obedient faith that saves. LDS go around baptizing dead corpses. The Gospel of Christ is for the living — not the dead. Once you are dead its too late to accept Christ. Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off, and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother.

So when Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, but Mary remained seated in the house. But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? Not what you assume….. Just to clarify, LDS do not baptize corpses. It is proxy baptism performed by the living in behalf of the dead. I agree with just me, you dont need works for salvation. Many a man have confessed on their death bed, were baptized and saved.

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Does that mean they dont receive the same reward? The problem is thier version of the Bible changes the words and tus the meaning of referenced verses. You cant get through to them. No Holy Spirit dwelling on the inside of them. And no, the claim that they both draw from the same source material is not an answer.

This is text that was added by the KJV translators to clarify passages that did not easily translate into English. In other words, they are additions that had to be added during the act of translation, they were not present in the original text. It tries desperately to please the political climate as far as possible. First is was sanctioned as what God intended, so the brethren needed to get more wives, then in comes the government sanctioning it illegal for impending statehood, and gee, it went away mostly.

Dud you are a clown, that is destined to an eternal he l if you do t denounce your pride, repenting of your sins to the living God that He mat extemd salvation unto you. You can perhaps infer it from the text, if you are so inclined, but there is no question that understanding is not taught in the bible, if so, will you show me where?

To the contrary He reaffirmed the teaching of one God in Mark Jesus kept dietary laws AND the sabbath before and after His resurrection, but modern Christianity uses weak verses to abandon those. The problem with this idea is that Joseph Smith himself claimed that upstate New York was the site of the climatic battle. I understand that since then, as no archaeological evidence is present, the church has revised the location to the Guatemalan and Yucatan peninsulas.

The problem this presents though is that Joseph Smith made these claims based on divine revelation and was a prophet i. However, the need for revision shows that he clearly was fallible, therefore his claim to be a prophet is shown to be false. The Bible is very clear on this for how we are supposed to test a prophet.

Additionally, that is not the only instance in which Joseph Smith was wrong when claiming to speak in his role as the prophet. Or any number of other issues, claims, doctrines that the church has since had to revise. They are not of faith, they are false, they are crazy, etc. Why because if you are LDS you accept and believe and are convinced that he alone was infallible on such matters. It is JUST that the rest of the world is hateful towards the true church, right? I challenge you to read the Book of John, chapter one. Sue, I think you lost translation somewhere.

She is a Christian with LDS family members. Read the posts toward the top. And Joseph Smith tells us God came from the planet Kollob, almost spells something else in reverse. You cannot serve GOD with your head, you serve him with your heart. Serving GOD with their heads is the main cause of division in the church today. Serving GOD with your heart requires faith, requires love, requires grace, mercy and all other fruits of the spirit.

If we, as a church, unite in serving JESUS, in spirit and in truth, then we will impact the world more effectively and our intentions, for the world to be saved, will be effective. GOD bless you all. None of us including you my friend were there but you choose to believe that. And for that matter, why are you on here trying to argue the facts using what is in our own opinions a false doctrine? I am sure you know by now that you are talking to us as if we were part of the LDS community. None of us except for you are LDS.

I know that I am not. I live with my LDS friends too. We definitely are family to each other but we are and always will be in separate churches. I will be straight forward with you and tell you right here that us Christians do not believe in the Book of Mormon. Most of us see the Mormon church as a cult and false religion. Now I personally say that you really should see your way out of this conversation since we are not going on your mormons blogs and trying to prove our point there.

My friends and I have a solid respect for each other. We agree that we all believe in God. But we also agree that we have completely different beliefs. I am a Christian and they are Mormons. And that is how it will always be. Of all the places Joseph Smith mentioned, not one trace has been found. He also mentioned items,such as swords that have not been found on this continent. His writings are so obviously a fraud, that I wonder anyone is fooled. Grace means unmerited favor.

It has nothing to do with being righteous. We are saved by Grace not by our works. When we are in Christ Jesus, we have a rudder where we know in ordinary things what is right or wrong. So in this life we will have troubles. Also we repent very quickly and go to bed forgiven in mercy. Jesus is the only one to follow….. Remember he still has a thorn in his side…True! If not check with G-d…….. No one comes to the Father except by ME….

Your Church nor your Pastor is the way…. That hardly seems fair to anyone except your group. It is called the Fires of Faith and is freely available. It very clearly disputes your ideas that the books were handpicked and groomed to the tastes of King James. If you are LDS then you should know that your opinions on this differ from what your church officially states…. Oh that your eyes and ears could receive the revelation that your religions serves man and NOT a Holy God. Jesus is the Head and the church is His body. What happens when the head is severed from the body? Jesus and His church are one.

The church is also the bride of Christ. There is so much more. The Bible as we know it was actually determined in CE with Constatine and the leaders of the various factions of the Church. King James was the one who got the Bible translated into the KJV as it was before all the other various translations of the Bible came to be. He only commissioned a translation of the very same books translators had been rendering in English since the beginning of the Reformation starting with Tyndale, continuing through the very popular Geneva Bible, etc.

The four gospels we have had been recognized throughout the church from very early on there is strong evidence in the second century. Some creative revisionist history being spun there. King James hand picked the books to be included huh? Do some actual historical research. What a foolish man you are, that you have placed your trust in your intellect. How sad it will be for you on the Great White Throne Judgement, if you do not denouce your pride and arrogance, falling to your needs with a broken and contrite heart, that the one who saves, may receive you into his blossom, remembering your sins no more.

You clearly have no revelation of what that scripure means. According to John 7: This means we judge another in light of what the Word of God says. So, you my friend stand guilty as charged. Your intellect means nothing to Jesus! Few have understood what the significance of this Scripture. People do not have a revelation of the Lord for themselves, their own revelation from the Lord about himself, without a revelation of the Lord there is no strength to stand in Him.

I am reading the word more, praying and listening for confirmation—that still, small voice of the Lord. I have not given up on corporate worship. I just got tired. Praying and trusting God for my life and the answers. I know he had planted me where I am but I just had to get away for a while. Lord help the organized church. Thank you for your insight also. Clearly you have no idea, that you are using the scripture incorrectly and out of the proper context.

That means to judge according to His Living Word. You really should stay away from christian topics and blogs, for your ignorance testifies against you. Fortunately there is more than sufficient evidence even just in the gospels themselves.

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Unfortunately your logic is foolishness in light of the Holy Scriptures. Your argument is against Jesus, not me, as I only spoke His words! Translations since then may or may not have faltered, but if you think for one minute that God was not in control of that then you have no true understanding of God. And there are books in the Bible go all the way back to Moses who, under the direction of God, wrote the first 5 books of the Old Testament.

God has shown Himself all throughout the Bible, and the churches history, and into today, whither people choose to see it or not. How do I know what I believe is true? The Holy Spirit confirms it. Am thinking of 1 John 2: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: Same old trick, different cult. All your rightousness is as filthy menstrual rags before the Most High God.

He is not like unto your old man on the planet Kolbol. He is a consuming Fire. Even now He is coming with His Angels to bring judgement. The axe is layed unto the root. This blog would have been better suited years ago. Not to mention your article is more devisive than unifying.

I feel this blog merely contributes to a growing group of Christ Followers more interested in the idea of changing the world rather then actually doing it! This is an interpretation. For me, I see this as Christ saying, I have other sheep who do not yet know me not of this fold , but through you I will bring them into the body of Christ. And what of the baptisms for the dead, which are actually commented on in the new testament.

To think as many churches do, that the billions who have lived never even having had a chance to receive the teachings of the Lord, would be damned? How silly would this be? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And also the requirement that any church of Christ would have the required callings of a prophet, apostles, seventies, bishops, elders, priests, teachers and deacons? Will you sweep this aside as well? The answer is rather obvious from the context of the gospels. This is a central point emphasized repeatedly throughout the New Testament Acts shows us the transition, and Paul frequently explains this reality, e.

He was speaking of the Gentiles. The other sheep are simply gentiles, that is all of us not the Children of Israel. We are those putting faith in Christ and of the grafted in branch. If anyone could have been a Mormon, I could have been one. Fortunately, the Lord took me away from their influence and put me into a bibe believing church.

They are a seemingly nice group of people but greatly deceived by Joseph Smith. Unedited history declares what kind of man he was…a deceitful, Scripture twisting, megalomaniac. Such is the nature of hate, which we all know the root of. It is a shame so many churches feel it necessary to lash out at other faiths in such an un-christ like manner.

I remember when the Baptists showed up at one of our pageants to hold signs and protest against us. We treated them with love and rspect and even gave them food and drink. It is amazing how many of them turned their signs around and stared at the words of hatefulness they were preaching. In the face of such kindness and love they were dumbfounded and many of them left that day. Megalomaniac I think not.

Do you forget the opening statement in the BOM? Please be very clear that when Christians defend our faith against that of the LDS church, we are not attacking you. The LDS church claims that Christians do not have the full gospel and that what they do have in the Bible was corrupted as soon as it was set down in writing. The LDS church claims that Christian beliefs are wrong and that they are the result of a great apostasy.

It is very dishonest of you to claim that you would never attack another persons religion or beliefs. I have long removed myself from going to church because of a couple of different reasons. I do not support the church of the LDS nor fully support the Christian church. In , he got the leaders of various factions of some of the branches of Christianity and together, they decided what would put into the Bible and what would be removed.

Now, I do understand that the early church wanted consistency and that some of these gospels and books did not fall in line with their dogma, the whole story is not being told. He did not form the Catholic Church- that was Theodisius. Read some actual history rather than taking the word of internet rumors and conspiracy theorists. Scripture was considered scripture long before official big wigs were around to influence the matter.

The belief is that a Greek theologian was the first to put the Bible together the way we know it today. But all agree that the Second Council of Constantinoble agreed to the books officially. Many believe that books were excluded and destroyed, but who really knows for sure? No, all do not agree that the Second Council of Constantinople agreed to the canon.

That council happened in AD- long after the formation of the Roman Catholic church. Heck, that council was long after Patrick spread the gospel to Ireland and the Celtic Church emerged. Who really knows for sure? Anyone who bothers to read actual history. Most of the notes from those councils have been preserved. Only by the Spirit of the Lord can we know what should be considered as inspired of Him or not. There is no other way. Anything can be considered a gospel; anything can be considered as a legitimate component of the canon of Scripture, but what does God have to say?

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Jews went to temple. They observed holy days and feasts, and did sacrifice. They went to synagogue or at least the men did, and they learned Torah orally from an early age. Church is a newer concept, and even before Rome got involved it was nothing like what accounts for church on American soil. Apostacy is the definition of Joseph Smith…he was an apostate in every sense, which makes me chuckle…. I think it not a stretch to believe that any historical documents that supported his view would have been destroyed also. This was the established method of the Roman Catholic church.

At the beginning of this mess, someone suggested that the discussion would descend into bickering about irrelevant technicalities. This is why, since I began to think for myself, I have never felt closer to my Creator than when I was in the midst of a forest or a vast desert, deep in meditation, and usually alone. As long as there are individuals.

There will be differing opinions. Americans are taught to be free thinking from early on, much of the other cultures are more conformist than those on our soil. Fess up, I know you knew…blessings on your alone time, may you be enlightened sweetie! Do I have to write provocative articles to get a response from readers? Look it up, go to library go get books on Masons, and compare the ceremonies. Read anything written about the Book of Abraham outside church approved documents. Be bold, be brave, and look at the information outside church explanations about what kind of life Joseph Smith actually lived.

And then if you want people who were like you, go read some of the stories that put your religion in context and why many have left. Stand alone and be their own deal and not try to say they are something, or present that they are something they are NOT. That is where the conflict is, not with you personally.

If the LDS church would stand alone, and say we have a different take on how to get to heaven and how to live. Joseph Smith is the basis of the religion, his dreams, his books. Most of the Christian Protestant denominations only differ on a few points. No more temple rites, no more priestly activities, ceremony. LDS follow the prophet, you sing, follow the prophet songs.

Who cares about a prophet, mere mortal, too limited. I am heart sick over how many are duped, why they are duped, and how they continue to be duped. But if you talk to those who left, or go to exmormon. The betrayal the deception really harms. Talk to the missionaries after their 2 yrs, most are so disillusioned. In the book of Revelations 7: You dont know who are true believers.

Only God know that. I believe GrimEngineer was talking about the governance and organization, not necessarily the doctrine. In either case, perhaps one should not be so quick to cast the first stone. Bible and book burning coming son! Via 3rd party statistics also. The ancient Christian churches do that too. Well, it is not the SOLE job of the preacher to pastor the flock. That is the job of the elders which he may be one of them.

Secondly if the pastor preaches a mess with the Holy Spirit it is very good , and thirdly I believe a church is there to use its gifts to reach out to the people and outside and lost and the church must train them to disciple. There are only two churches, the true and the false, Do you truly know to which church you are referring?

Get your butt out of the pew and start teaching yourself, read your bible! As for the Apostles, they lived a harsh life and gave their life for the gospel, certainly far from Pastors of today who live off the backs of the flock living in cribs in upscale neighborhoods while single parents struggle.. I left your faulty brand of church a long time ago!! The scriptures written by the apostles taught them to take care of one another needs, and one of the churches hugest problems is they have become the pastor only church instead of a living organism they became an organisation instead.

The care one for another in the church has basically vanished out the door. The overwhelming amount of churches in America, are business ventures. Men and women attain professional degree, that they may open a church for profit. Jesus says in Jeremiah They have run with their message and prophesy, but I did not speak to them.

Again, their are many false prophets who have gone out in Jesus name for profit. People think the church does not have expenses or responsibilities to the government. Do you think all pastors just suck up all the money??? No, some pay the bills and even have to come out of their personal pockets to help the church stay alive so that the lights are on when YOU do decide to come to church.

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How about trying this on, go to church because you need it. Not about anything else. I personally think each church organization HQ baptist, catholic, methodist, etc should collect the offerings and ensure all in the church are taken care of — including the pastor. There is nothing in scripture to support this teaching that the church is responsible for supporting a pastors lifestyle … it is pure pride and arrogance and misinterpretation of the scriptures.

Like it or not, you are not in line with scripture, Mary. It should be the other way around, the leaders living lavishly ought to be caring and meeting specific needs of the poor … where and in what church is this occurring? Taking scripture out of its context, using it as weaponry, misinterpreting and using half truths are the tools of deception and profiting is the goal, period. There is simply no other justification for money to even play a part. God knew what he was doing when it came to money. The early church understood this and provisions like food and shelter were provided as there was need.

Not this ridiculousness we see going on today. A collection was taking up once for the poor and sent to Jerusalem … today the church, which is billions rich and tax exempt, begs for money repeatedly week after week after week. Go educate yourself about the Jewish Apostles and the way. Ancient Israel and the early church did not run the church like it is ran today. They were a true family, inclusive, caring, loving, discerning. I believe if pastors truly cared for God and his people, he would gladly get a job like the ones who have a job and volunteer for free, while a pastor draws a salary, how arrogant and entitled for a pastor to do this, they just wanna be a God themselves.

Then they would delegate and everyone would have purpose … oh, the pride of some men. I believe any pastor drawing a salary and living off the backs of the week is no man of God at all but a man of self! Now go get a job! Thank you soo much for explaining this. I always wondered how that was to be.

Now that I realize it is of the increase.. You do not know how much of a burdon has been lifted. I always felt so bad for not tithing properly that I often simply did not. I always made sure my kids I am a single mom have offering and I would put in a love offering but the tith was such a burdon that I could not do and always felt so guilty. GrimmEngineer you will never know what that information has done for me. I encourage you to study all the Scriptures that deal with the commanded tithe.

If you do, you will find that God never commanded anyone to tithe his or her money to the Temple. You will also find that in the New Testament, tithes were never commanded for, carried to, collected in, or controlled by the Church. God does not want tithe of money, and He never required people living on Gentile soil to tithe.

Your tithe is what you want to give to God. Whatever you do decide to give to him should be given cheerfully and without resentment. And remember, it is optional, but this is the only thing that Jesus ever said to test him on. Pray about it, search scripture, and then give what you are led to give. I hope that in turn you will see those storehouses opened up and poured out upon you for faithfully rising up.

As far as criticizing a church for paying their Pastor — he not only works for God, but he works for his people. It is only fair that he is paid so that he can provide for his family. Would you work endless hours a day, 7 days a week without an income? Almost everyone produced something.

Whether it be cattle, or plants or other goods. When you paid your tithes you gave your best cattle, or sheep, or produce etc. For example, Alma My view is this: Old Testament, you owe a tenth of your first fruits to God who has supplied; New Testament, you were bought with a price and every dime, resource, or minute in your possession belongs to God who supplies your needs in order to expand his kingdom and glorify him. Why limit it to a tenth? To give to the churh is not just monetary. Share your money, time, talents, and resources. It is like any community, you should give as you receive.

It is about being in relationship. Its not a monetary relationship… that is not Biblical. You give to God in faith… not out of expectation that you will receive anything in return. God already gave His life for you… He owes you nothing else. Yet you offer no counterpoint. How is anyone to know if YOU have any scriptural understanding?

Without keeping his promises. Words as in words in the Bible are cheap. God broke His promises to me, if there were any promises at all. Do they ask for your salary slip? Why do people fight here about what the tithe is? Tithe is not a tax! It is a free will offering. They also know that no one can out give God. Unless Saint Peter is expecting all of your check. John have you not read the Bible lately? Never saw a miracle in the bible where Jesus gave money to the poor beggars.

They knew in their knowers that they need the bread of life to survive. Muslims boast they pray 5 times a day. Christians pray without cease. At least we pray like Jesus pbuh , with our faces to the ground.. Check out how Jesus pbuh prayed in Matt. Tithing is a covenant giving by individuals who foremost have a relationship with God and by grace, understands the principle behind it.

It is possible for someone to love God deeply but just happen not to accept tithing. No amount of argument can make anyone to accept the principles of tithing. Jacob promised God he was going to give it. No one told him to do so. Jacob never said God asked him for it but probably he learnt about tithing from his own father.

In almost 40 years of my work experience I have found out how it works. I can speak for myself. I owe no obligation to anyone on this matter to disclose whether or not I am a tither, it is an issue between me and my God. God has been very generous to me over the years in many ways. More than issues about money, my everyday desire is to please God by the help of the Holy Spirit. Actually, God does not need my money but many people around me do.

My attitude towards money can reveal a lot about the content of my heart. Please, I hope you are not offended? Who cares, tithing doesnt save. God does not condemn us,Usually its christians quarreling amongst them selves, how better than others one is because you tithe? Huh what Bible do christians read? Feed orphans weekly etc etc not not to pay for a building,pastor ,lights,smoke screens etc etc ,entertainment,extra ministries like coffee shops ,blah blah blah.

Its Grace my friends no matter where you are with God. All fall short of Gods Glory, you aswell no matter how much you tithe. No, no one needs to tear anybody down. It is a matter of explanation based on observations, and personal experience derived from many years of active study and application of the Word of God in a personal life. Perhaps you have read in the Bible also that faith without work is dead?

What gives you the impression that those who tithe do not give to the homeless and support widows and orphans? How did you come to the conclusion that those who tithe do not obey the instruction that they should love God wholeheartedly and love others as themselves? Who told you to compare people on the basis of whether or not one pays tithe? I think it is also a generalised assumption to think that all Churches where there are faithful tithers the money thus generated by the Church goes to the ministers alone or spent on fanciful buildings and frivolous expenses.

As I mentioned in my last post, not even all those who are genuine believers accept the principles of tithing. That being the case, what chance then does an unbeliever has of receiving sound teaching on tithing? This is not to suggest in anyway that you are not a believer it is just that at this point in time you have not yet accepted the teaching on tithing. It does not follow that you cannot receive it in the future if you are already a true believer or become one in the future. No one can earn any favour from God on the basis of good works alone but surely God rewards obedience, faithfulness and service.

Tithing was widely practiced in the old testament as suggested by Malachi 3: There is absolutely nothing to suggest that those who gave tithe in the old testament failed in their duty to take care of widows and orphans. In the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ He did not say people should not give tithe. He only condemned those who failed in their duty to take care of their parents under the cloak that gave their money to the temple service and as such they had nothing left to give to their parents.

We can talk about tithing from now till the cow comes home without coming to any reasonable agreement. That is what God said. Just obey and see what happens in your life. You may find out that that will be the end of all argument on the issue as far as you are concerned. Of course it is inclusive! In conclusion, as someone rightly pointed out on this forum, we should all go back to the Church and support the work of God in the Church and not look for excuses about faults in the Church.

I hope you understand where I am coming from on this? Before anyone can please our Holy God, we must receive his Holy Spirit as it is written in John 14; This is what Jesus wants you to know and have Peter. Jesus is calling us into repentance and into a covenant with Him through the Holy Spirit which He pray to God to sent to those who wants it. It is a teacher and a guide and to have true worship with Jesus. We must ask Jesus for His Holy Spirit to live in us. We must surrender to Jesus and be obedience to His will not our will.

Those receive His Holy Spirit and seeking Him, He will open your eyes and mind to the real fellowship with Him until his return for His chosen people who were obedience in receiving His gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the living sacrifice to redeem man back to Him and to fulfill the the promise He gave to Israel and redeem man from their sins, which Adam sin. Lets receive His gift to man Acts 2;38 and than seek Him about how we can financially help in spreading the word of God all over the world, in mission field, etc.

We live in a world now that it takes money to paid for mission work. We have to let God guide us to the ministry He want us to work in and is truly called by Him. If we do our parts as Jesus disciples than let Jesus deal with the wick ministry and people, they are not getting away.

If we are struggling, let fast to help someone in more need, or help in the church, cut the grass, pick up trash along the road to your church and community and watch God turn your situation around and cancel outstanding debts we owe. He will show His people favor with man. So Instead of us fussing our paying tithes we need to focus on having what Jesus said we need to have to return back with Him when he return. I will not hear from you Peter but I pray that Jesus will open your eyes from being a debtor against His chosen people and be a Disciple of His word.

Love you in Jesus Name my brothers and sister who will read this message. You seem to suggest that people who pay tithe love others less and turn blind eyes to the poor. Tear you to pieces? Look my brother, this is not a theological debate or intellectual argument. It is about faith, commitment, level of grace, and depth of relationship with God.

It is also about experience and exposure. The end of all arguments over this is to try God and see. NOT what God wants of us. He is very specific in that as He states….

I feel that means f the r us ALL to make a heart felt decision to do what is right …. The tithe is an OT Law, 1 of If we are to honor 1 we are to honor them all. The tithe was instituted by GOD for his chosen people, the Israelites. God instructed his chosen on how to handle the tithe, who would benefit from it and that it was to be eaten before the Lord. Do pastors today eat the tithe bf the Lord? No, they live lavishly off the backs off their own flock.

They are liars and deceivers. The tithe was not for preachers or christians, it was for the Levite priests and the people of Israel, the Jews and it was also to be brought to Jerusalem for the celebration held there, it was a covenant arrangement. Any man today teaching tithe law keeping is a false teacher! Thanks, but I do not see it that way.

Nonetheless, I also know that there are many other genuine men and women of God out there. My offering is part of my worship. Once I drop it in the offering bowl my obligation ends. I trust God to be able to hold accountable those who thereafter handle the money. In fact, I do not loose sleep over any offering that I hand over after I have done it. Tithing is an immense burden and stress to single parents, abandoned by their spouses, and who are raising their dependent children alone.

When you are hungry, and without a secure shelter over your head, it is a horrible pressure, and a horrible guilt. From a human point of view you are right. Any service that is done involuntarily would naturally be burdensome. When a man truly falls in love with a woman there is no telling what he can do for a newly found love.

When the motivation is borne out of love and desire for service, people can for example walk a thousand mile from Europe to Jerusalem under inclement conditions just for the desire to do it. Others can go to places to preach the gospel even when they know they may not return alive. Precisely, that was what Jesus did for us. He gave His life for us so that we can live. We cannot give more than what Jesus already gave us. You seem to care about poor single parents.

There is one very poor single parent I read about in the bible. She wanted to cook for her son and herself their last meal and thereafter there was no hope of any more food coming their way. Then a prophet who I do not envy his position came on the scene and asked for a share out of that meal. From a human point of view that prophet would have been condemned as a heartless man. The poor single mother was willing to share her last meal with a stranger and then a miracle followed.

If you cannot give when you are poor you are most unlikely going to give even if you have plenty. I have found out that those who are willing to give the little they have not under compulsion always come back smiling with a testimony to share. The church is always complaining about us not giving when they refuse to hold up their end of the deal. Sorry my ignorance about you here, have you approached your family?

I help and give the the person standing in front of me at any given time, whom G-d sent for me to help. G-d never demanded a communist system. In fact no system, since we are not of this world, only in it. Tithing of time and talents skills and gifts are worthy tithe. But when did the Lord ever accept anything as a tithe that was different than animals and crops??? Why must we become children in our understanding?

Such are no so abundant upon the earth that there is just no money to go around anymore. That sentence of yours I see hundreds of times in all forums. There is plenty of money, it is just in the wrong hands. There is also opportunity to change ones financial future, and it is not god who makes that happen.

I have been able to see my situation much more clearly since I left religion than I ever did with any of the Pastors, teachers, and advisers I had in my life as a believer. I was always taught to spend less not like I had much to spend rather than to learn how to make more. There really is a failure in the American educational and religious systems when it comes to money. God will not provide! We must provide for ourselves. So governments print dollars or whatever other fiat denominations, we need our Father for our to give the increase for our living in HIS way.

The church as you see it inthe building with a bell tower or not, consists of people such as yourself, hapless people who sit with lots and lots of worries.

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